New career path

I suppose that if you give 2% of your paycheck to the union then it is going to at least negotiate for an inflation (Cost of living) adjustment to the payroll. What benefits do the union give you compared to other industries not unionized?

Have you had a pay cut so far in your during your career ?? or what you mean is that subsequent years pay can come down but never below what you’re currently earning??

Thanks

Thanks @Tory

That’s what I thought about the pay scales on APC. As I asked Adam, I suppose that those small adjustments consider at least an inflation adjustment. Before the pandemic inflation was very low (2%-3%) but now is much higher (8%) and we don’t know when it’s going to stabilize around the 2%-3% range again.

Francisco,

  1. In addition to negotiating a contract the union also helps to enforce it. The fact is the airlines don’t always follow the rules, particularly when they have issues themselves. We saw a great example of this last week when AAs scheduling system had an error and pilots were able to drop a large number of trips. When the airline recognized the error the not only put the trips back on the pilots schedules, they also reversed trades and drops prior to the glitch. Their union was quick to communicate this was not legal and no pilot could be forced back into the trip. In addition the union provides other protections such as representation should you have a bad day at work, medical advice, and many other concerns pilots face.

  2. Absolutely. When I was at my Regional and the economy tanked there were furloughs and downgrades. I was downgraded and took a 60% paycut. Further when things got worse the company came to the pilot group for concessions, one of which was a paycut. While it doesn’t happen often it does happen.

Adam

Thanks @Adam

Have pilot salaries been so good historically comparatively with other jobs ?? Now they are, I don’t know if it’s just because of the pilot shortage. See link.

Francisco,

There’s no question the pilot shortage has done wonders for the industry. Particularly the Regionals. In the past (and for many years) starting pay at the Regionals was under $20k. In the past pay at the Majors actually was higher but took several hits along the way. We’re actually still not back to where it was but we’re definitely closer.

A big part of the reason you’re seeing so many pilot groups in ongoing, dragged out, negotiations right now is the pilots are pushing for higher increases based on the shortage and current inflation while the airlines are arguing the economy is due to tank. The airlines are also pushing for shorter term contracts (2-3yrs) vs the traditional (5-7) for the same reason.

Adam

Francisco,

There was a time when pay at the majors was even higher than it is now, especially when adjusted for inflation. I remember my father making over $300k per year as a 737 captain at US Airways in 1999, which would be about $526k today. We are making progress, but are certainly not back that point yet.

Chris

Why did pay rates got so far behind to where they were during those years?? I could guess that they lowered during the GFC and never brought them back to previous levels.

I would worry if instead it is a trend that will keep them going down with the years. That happens when rates are not adjusted at least for inflation.

Francisco,

Worried? I’ll let you in on a little secret. The truth is if United, Delta, AA etc annouced they were going to hire 1,000 pilots next year and pay them nothing for the first year they would still be flooded with applications. At our core many of us are all suckers who simply love the job and the airlines know it. Further, while the salaries aren’t what they were, they’re still pretty darn good and there aren’t many gigs that pay as well (unless you’re famous).

Adam

Francisco,

You have to get the idea of pay rates being adjusted for inflation out of your head. I am not an expert on the subject, but I believe that is actually prohibited by the Railway Labor Act.

Rates got very low after September 11, 2001 when the industry went into a total nose dive. Now to be clear, the industry had some illness before that time, but 9-11 was the catalyst that pushed it over the edge. That combined with a presidential administration that was very hostile to organized labor led to much lower pay rates.

Chris

Adam those 1000 pilots will take the job because they know they will be paid very well in the future. That’s the reason why they are applying to those airlines and not to others in the first place. That will be the price of entry. It’s like having to go through the regionals for $45/hr in order to jump to the majors.

I agree that this is a very well paid profession and that this might not be a problem for our generation but for younger pilots if those adjustments are not taken care gradually, there will come the time when it won’t be well paid anymore.

It’s good to know that contracts are being revised and adjusted closer to previous years.

Thanks @Chris

I understand. This is just me trying to learn about the industry, how things have evolved and where they could be heading.

Francisco,

Some maybe but not all and $45k ain’t bad.

I gave up a successful business and took a job at a Regional for $18k a year. I never imagined I’d ever make it to a Major and earn what I’m earning now. I honestly anticipated being a Regional lifer and maybe getting close to $100k, maybe. I did it because I discovered that that money (while important) had little correlation to my version of happiness and being happy (content, satisfied, challenged, accomplished) was at that point in my life was my goal. I can tell you for a fact I’m not the only one. One of my very best friends has been a Regional pilot for 25yrs and will retire as one. Most important he loves his life. I’ve been extremely fortunate but I know many who weren’t.

Now clearly the financial aspect of this career is important to you which I understand. What concerns me is there are zero guarantees you’ll ever get to the salaries you’re looking at. If you were to get stuck at a Regional (checkride failures, accident or incident, bad interview, etc) making
$80-90k forever would you be ok with that? If not you really need to think long and hard. Another, 9/11, market crash, pandemic and things can change on a dime.

While goals are important so it’s being realistic about ebbs and tides of this industry.

Adam

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I know Adam, there are no guarantees in any job. Bad interviews, wrong company, the boss doesn’t like you, back stabbed, etc, etc. Many things can happen and you never get that dreamed job/position.

$18k 20 years ago would be $33k today @ 3%. If today is at $40k then at least on this front things have gotten better.

The thing is that I’m not happy with what I do today and I’m pretty sure I would be happy being a pilot but a good pay would just add to that happiness. :slightly_smiling_face:

Francisco,

This can be a little more volitile but as long as you get the point.

Btw, the $18 didn’t change until now like 5-7yrs ago and the only reason it did was because of the pilot shortage. At my airline Hawaiian, first year pay was $36 for the last 15yrs and only changed a few months ago again due to the shortage.

As Chris said you need to forget this whole cost of living thing. It’s purely supply and demand and if the supply carches up or the demand goes down you’ll see what happens. Chris said his dad was making $300k in 1999. If there’s was this perpetual increase pilots would be making double now, they’re not. We’re finally catching up.

Adam

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Wow but $18k 5 years ago is pretty low. Even the $36 for a major. Was this low pay just during the first year and then jumped rapidly to a more decent rate?

How much was the pay 5-7 years ago for a 5 year captain in that regional??

How much was the pay for a 5 year captain at your airline when first year FO was at $36??

So related to the article I posted before, how has compared the pilot job pay to other jobs pay in the recent past (10 years)?? Has it been as good as it is today or is this just now because of the shortage??

I’m sorry for asking so much about this but I would really like to know as much as I can since this will be the primary income in my household, I’m 42, the ATP loan is big and I’m not rich.

You guys have been very helpful.

I’ll forget about the cost of living thing.

Francisco,

Yes, traditionally first year pay at any airline was pretty low, then about doubled the second year *(generally speaking). The promise of the airline career was always at the end, as a captain at a major airline. Now, because of the shortage, we are seeing pay become far better at all levels oof the industry.

It is difficult to answer many of your questions with specifics as they would require a detailed analysis of pilot pay over time and I simply do not have access to that information. I also do not know how other industries have fared as I am not an expert on other professions.

Generally speaking though, pilot pay has increased pretty substantially over the last decade. Much of this was driven by the pilot shortage, some of it was driven by a presidential administration that was far more receptive to organized labor than others have been.

What I can tell you is that the middle class in general is slowly being eroded by the taxation policies of the federal government, coupled with their total disregard for how excess spending affects inflation. Very few professions have been safe from this over the years. Most doctors, lawyers, executives, etc that I know have complained about their purchasing power being eroded over the years.

The pilot shortage has certainly helped us and does not show any signs of easing anytime soon.

Chris

Francisco,

As Chris said first year pay traditionally has been very low as it was the “price of admission” for the career at both the Regionals and the Majors. I’m going to disagree with Chris as I believe the increases are 100% due to the shortage. Pilots are a huge expense and they wouldn’t be paying the salaries they are if they didn’t have to.

As to what the salaries were years ago I’m going have ballpark as I don’t have that info handy. What I can tell you is Regional pay (with the exception of first year) really hasn’t increased that much over the last 20 years and Capts did and still top out at about $80k. 5yrs ago at Hawaiian we got a new contract with significant gains which took me from the low $200k to the mid. How we compared with other careers I couldn’t say because it doesn’t affect me.

Don’t be sorry. These are important considerations. The thing is I know airline pilots who make well under $100 and others making over $500k. Which you’ll be is often a matter of good fortune and timing so while it’s good to get an idea you really won’t know until you’re there.

Adam

Francisco,

I saw this today and thought you might be interested. From the United pilot union:

  1. Why are our pay rate increases this year not higher than the inflation rate?
    The current inflation is a snapshot in time, while our contractual wage rates extend forward indefinitely. Once we negotiate a wage increase, that is in the book moving forward. If CPI goes negative, we don’t negotiate wage decreases. If inflation is high, we want a wage increase. If inflation is low, we want an increase. Over time, our wage increases have historically outpaced inflation. It is harder to do that in the current news cycle. Today’s inflation is one data point out of many in the negotiation of a contract.

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Thanks @Chris and @Adam

@Chris very interesting as it seem the union do take into consideration concerns about inflation and explains how at least from 2012 the rate increases at United have outpaced inflation.

Here’s a very interesting video I found about the Pilot Pay History which explains how salaries have changed since pre 9/11

Hi everyone,

Question:

When looking at pilot job posts I see most of them have “No accidents/incidents” as a condition to apply

Obviously excluding a major crash or accident, what are most common accidents or incidents that could occur that might affect your record when you apply for a pilot job??

If the accident/incident was caused by others (E.g. wrong instructions from air traffic control) is your record still affected ??

Thanks