Hello aviation community,

I seem to be in a unique situation regarding restricted ATP privileges. Here’s my situation:

As a background, I obtained my PPL and a B.S. in Aeronautics from ERAU, and now I am also a graduate student studying Aeronautics with a dual specialization in Human Factors and Space Studies.

After graduating, I decided to continue my flight training outside of Riddle, but I did not realize my current flight school does not have an LOA with the FAA for R-ATP privileges. I now know that would not even make a difference because all the flight and ground courses need to be completed at the same institution where the degree was obtained per FAR 61.160.

After speaking with a few people, it was brought to my attention that if I’m trying to get back into the flight program as a graduate student, I would not qualify for restricted privileges anyway because my flight would have had to be completed before the completion of my bachelor’s degree (which, correct me if I’m wrong but it doesn’t say that in the FAR’s).

I have the LOA and FAR 61.160 printed out in front of me and nowhere does it state that I need to have completed my training before the completion of my degree. It just says that I need my instrument and commercial flight and ground courses completed at the same institution where I obtained the bachelor’s degree with 30-60 credits completed in an aviation field of study.

So my question is, if I go back to Riddle, redo my instrument training there and do my commercial training there as well, would I qualify for R-ATP privileges since I already have the bachelor’s with ground courses completed from Riddle as well? I was told I can possibly complete a second bachelor’s degree and complete the flight courses before the completion of the degree, but the FAR doesn’t say anything about the flight being done in attachment to a degree. It also doesn’t make sense because some of the degrees acceptable on the LOA don’t have flight courses attached to them.

As far as I’ve come to understand 141 training (which I did at ATP for the Arizona State University program), you are not eligible at this point in any way for the RATP, no matter where the training takes place. That being said, it’s a difference of 500 hours. That is about 5-6 months of instructing. If you can do a more accelerated program (like ATP), you would more than likely be done at LEAST 5-6 months sooner than going through a 141 program. So to me, the question is irrelevant. You have a bachelor’s degree, just get the training done as quickly as possible and get to flying. It’s the fastest way even with 1500 required.


You’re is an interesting question. The basic understanding is that the flight training MUST be completed as part of the degree program. However you are correct it does say CPL and Instrument training and you do have the degree so if you were to go back to Riddle you could possibly qualify? Honestly this is more of a question for the FSDO or Riddle themselves and I’d inquire there.

BUT, as Jordan said the question becomes why? You wouldn’t be saving any time or expense or expedite your entry to an airline so again what’s the benefit?


Well, I’m more so concerned with getting the required 500 hours of xc. A lot of the flights would be in a practice area and not a lot of xc time. It’s something that could keep me as a CFI for longer than anticipated. Also, 500 hours less total time would get me to the airlines faster because that would be less required of me.

You can get a RATP with 200 hours XC regardless of where training was done not at 1,000 hours it’d still be 1,500 but if you’re concerned about the XC time you shouldn’t be

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Totally your call but the reg clearly states:
(3) Holds a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and instrument rating if: *
**(i) The required ground training was completed as part of an approved part 141 curriculum at the institution of higher education; and **
*(ii) The required flight training was completed as part of an approved part 141 curriculum at the institution of higher education or at a part 141 pilot school that has a training agreement under § 141.26 of this chapter with the institution of higher education

Now if you think the fine folks are Riddle are going to let you bang out your CPL, IR and your CFIs in short order, I think you might be disappointed. Further as pointed out you only need 200hrs X-country. Totally your call.


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How would I qualify for 200 xc? I didn’t realize I could qualify for reduced xc mins…

I hope this helps you understand Restricted ATP minimums better.


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Okay well to this I understand it as if you have 1500 hours and you’re under 21 you only need 200 hours xc. What if you’re over 21? I’m 25. Would that mean I need the 500 xc?

I dealt with a lot of ATP and RATP applicants when I was an interviewer for SkyWest. There are several ways to qualify for a RATP. The right column is showing the MINS for full ATP privileges. The one next to it shows the minimums for a RATP with no education or military exception but solely based on not meeting age/hr requirements of the full ATP. Once either are satisfied, you can go into the FSDO and have it converted.



The age is the MINIMUM to hold the certificate. You can be older.


Thank you everyone for all of the information! Sometimes the legal jargon of the FAR’s makes me feel like a dummy lol. I also just noticed that I am in an approved master’s degree program listed on Riddle’s LOA. So now I’m thinking “can I actually do the flight courses under the master’s degree?” It’s just confusing because all everything states is that I need to have the training done under an approved part 141 curriculum, which I’m assuming just refers to the flight and ground courses and not the entire degree program. I don’t know. My train of thought was also to go back into Riddle’s flight program (somehow) and start with commercial and CFI and then redo my instrument while I instruct because the university does actually allow that. They have also increased the frequency at which they complete activities because they know students can train elsewhere at a faster pace. I started correspondence with the higher up’s in the aviation department at school. If anyone is interested in their LOA, here’s the link: https://daytonabeach.erau.edu/-/media/files/daytona-beach/college-of-aviation/flight/erau-daytona-faa-letter-authorization.pdf?la=en&hash=133C0B1B2725936C4F526BD19C56DE5F9E8C8ED5


I think your focus on obtaining the R-ATP will end up costing you significantly more time in the long run and will absolutely delay your entry into the airlines. You should be able to meet the minimums for a regular ATP just fine through flight instructing.

That being said, if your plan is to go to Riddle, you really should be directing these R-ATP questions directly to them as it is their program and they should have the answers for you.

Again though, your plan will take longer, cost you more money, and cost you significant seniority at the airlines.


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Thanks everyone! I decided to stay where I’m at. I found that in FAR 61.160(f) that a person is able to apply for an ATP certificate with 1,500 total hours and with 200 xc instead of 500 xc as long as the aeronautical experience is met in FAR 61.159. Thank you all for the information and input. It’s been helpful!


I concur.


Hah yeah that’s what we were all referencing - especially the photo above that mentions 160(f) specifically. Good luck to you!

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