I am new to this forum and have been spending a considerable amount of my time here. I want to first open with my captivation of airline aviation. The lifestyle and working environment intrigues me. From a young age I’ve been nomadic and somewhat separated from my family, now as an adult I detest sitting still, not physically but I like a change in environment frequently. I’ve had less than desirable moments exploring all my career paths however I find interest in this profession, but that’s not all—there’s a dilemma. My father has been working hard recently to build a real estate development business alongside other projects. My father can’t live forever and I’ve shown the most interest in my family to absorb the business or at least work alongside him. Now this is truly what I desire in the long term, it reminds me of when I was a kid, moving from jobsite to jobsite. I remember watching all the laborers build houses from the ground up and sitting on cold concrete rubble in the overcast morning. I would watch my father speaking to the foreman from a distance as he smoked his cigarettes. Unfortunately time is what is keeping my from capturing that dream. My family also discusses that I need to have a degree (preferably in business) and they advise me to have a minimum of a bachelors should I avoid a masters. We’re not interested in outsourcing or selling the family business so when the times comes I need to be ready to step up to the plate. This is where my dilemma is manifested, I equally want to pursue a career in aviation despite the profits being greater working alongside my father. I’ve now decided I want to work at least as a First Officer should I not have the opportunity to be Pilot in Command at Delta Airlines. I am not against regionals in anyway however wouldn’t we all prefer to work at the majors? I’ve looked at Delta’s Propel programs and although appealing my parents advise to finish my schooling at the University of Southern California since my family is either active or alumni of the school. I want to obtain my goal as quickly as possible. Unfortunately the Delta Propel Colligate program is not partnered with USC and to my knowledge the school only offers a graduate program in aviation safety with pre-requisites in classes outside of business real estate. I want the first 10-15 years of my life to fly commercially for Delta and almost exclusively have them be international flights. Flustered with every emotion at this point I want to reach out to opinions of the experienced in hopes of the best guidance possible.
A couple of things, first and foremost no, not everyone would “prefer to go to work at the Majors”. People have different goals and priorities and all are to be respected. Further if your goal is Delta’s Propel program, unless you’re joining the military you will be flying for a Regional so you better get used to the idea.
As for school there are many paths to the airlines and the Propel program as well. While a partner school will give you a slight hour reduction, an aviation degree won’t help you in the future whether you remain in aviation or not. If it were me I’d get your degree from USC, then complete your for training in short order through an accelerated program like ATP, build your time and get hired. This route will give you the most options.
Thank you for your response, I had been pondering on that proposition. I was just wondering if there was any accelerated path where I could squeeze everything in. I did not mean any offense when I mentioned the Regional airlines, I only assumed that was the consensus because almost each person I come across on this forum or in person always speaks about promoting to Majors. I was under the impression that this is always the end goal. I was trying to take into consideration the pilot shortage as well to my benefit, will it still be around by the time I’m ready? Regardless of me pursuing a career in aviation I am adamant on earning my PPL and PPL(H) within my lifetime. I think I will complete my college first and see how I feel then. For now I am booking my introductory flight as we speak.
I would say that the majority of pilots desire to go to the majors, but some do chose to stay at the regionals for whatever reason.
I must admit, I am a bit confused by your post. I cannot tell if you want to enter aviation or construction. They are very different fields and doing either full time will probably preclude doing the other. I personally would not invest $100k in flight training if my goal was to be out of the industry in ten years.
An international First Officer position at Delta Airlines is a senior position that will take many years to achieve. You might get there in ten years, you might not.
A family allegiance to USC is in my opinion, no real reason to go there, unless the school is giving you serious scholarships. I would open myself up to considering other schools. I would also not focus on getting an aviation degree. There really is no point to doing so as the airlines neither desire, nor prefer, aviation degrees.
I recommend spending some time in our FAQ section, there is a ton of information there that will help get you pointed in the right direction.
I think you should make the choice on what your career will be. Either stick with construction, getting your bachelors in business, and get a PPL just for fun. Or pursue becoming an airline pilot after graduating. If you only have 10-15 years to dedicate to it, you may or may not make it to your goal. The biggest benefits come with time in the industry. With time, comes seniority and with seniority, good quality of life.
If you started your degree today, four years from now you’d start flight training and two years later you’d be at a regional. So you’d be a junior reserve pilot six years from now. At best, upgrade to captain two years later and back to junior life as a captain. Maybe a year or two later you get a job at a major. Now you’re 10 years in of a potentially only 10-15 year commitment and a junior FO at a major. Do you see what I’m getting at? The beginning years are the hardest. There’s a lot of change and a lot of time being junior. With the limited scope of time in the industry, you might never make it to when it “gets good”.
Plus, unless you have a lot of spare cash laying around, paying off a $90k flight school loan takes considerable time. You might not even have it paid off by the time you call it quits.
I think your best course of action should be to get in an airplane and start flying. I am glad to hear that you have already scheduled an intro flight.
Thing is, there are many people that are fascinated with aviation, but there are few people that actually make the dream a reality. You need real experience behind the controls of an airplane to help you decide if this is something that you are truly passionate about.
If you are not passionate about flying, forget about it. This career requires sacrifice, grit and passion. It’s not easy, especially the first 5-10 years. Without passion, you won’t be willing to do what it takes to make your dream of flying internationally for Delta (or any airline) come true. That road is a lot longer and exclusive than you seem to be aware of.
Backing up a bit, when you have your intro flight remember that the intro flight is not a test. It is an intro. So, be sure not to overthink it. The main goal is to see if you enjoy it or at the very least are left wanting more.
If after the intro flight you are ready to begin formal lessons, be ready to work, hard. Learning to fly is hard enough as it is. Going from ground zero to flight instructor in 7 months is no joke. It’s easily the hardest thing I’ve ever done.
Thank you for your advise. I do want to clear some things, I do not want to necessarily go into construction, but into real estate management. My father is currently a contractor and has been very fortunate with his success in recent years so he’s decided to transition into real estate development. The business he’s proposing is to purchase land, build on it and sell it. The planning, architectural design, accounting, investing, building engineering, etc., will all be under 1 umbrella. The goal is that when I finish my college studies the hardship of setting up the business will be finished. I would then learn how to manage it alongside. My family has advised to still have a back-up plan in case of unforeseeable events. The years of college study, hour building, and ATP schooling is not something I’m including in the 10-15 years originally proposed. Another route proposed is if the business is successful I could attend ATP schooling without loans and at that point I’d be given an ultimatum, pursue aviation or work alongside my father to manage the real estate business. It seems now that its best for me to finish my studies first and then depending on the variables of how I feel about aviation at that point and what state the business is in I’ll have to make the choice then. My goal is to try to pave a way where all my options are open.
I have my flight booked at SMF next week, I will update you on my impressions and what its like to be in a plane for the first time. I cleared up some remarks in my reply to Hannah on this post. With that context in mind and without sugarcoating can you quantify how realistic my goals are on a scale of 1-10. I know this seems to be an over simplification but I want just a little insight and what are the genuine opinions of an outside perspective.
An intro flight now and completing college sounds like a great plan. Once you graduate you’ll be at a cross roads. Either start flight training and pursue being an airline pilot or stay in the family business. In the meantime you can really think about what kind of life you want to have.
The hiring wave is expected to last roughly the next 8 years. If you have 4 years of college, and it takes 2 years to complete all your ratings and build time you won’t have a whole lot of extra time. If it’s flying, you want to get that training started asap after college. You definitely don’t want to be at the back of the hiring wave. That means years of reserve, bad trips, little movement and vulnerability to furloughs.
I’m not even going to try to quantify because you need to understand that every single pilot has had/is having a very different experience. No two paths are the same in this industry. So, who knows? With a good training record and a bit of luck, sure you could see yourself flying internationally someday for Delta. Is it guaranteed? Absolutely not. Would you be able to do it within 10-15 years? Honestly, I don’t know and that’s my point.
All I am saying is that you need to have realistic expectations about why you are doing this. I would be careful going into this with this frame of mind:
While it is completely okay to have a goal like this, it is important to know that you may never get the opportunity to fly internationally or for Delta for that matter.
In other words, your statement is way too specific. You are giving yourself a finite amount of time to fly for the largest US airline, almost exclusively on international routes which are amongst the highest paid positions in the industry.
Instead of trying to quantify your chances (because there is absolutely no way that I can do that accurately), I would advise you to broaden your mind to other possibilities.
You can expect to spend about 5 years at a regional. If you get on with Delta at that point that leaves you with 5-10 years to build up enough seniority to fly those international routes. From what I recall, most Delta new hire pilots are assigned to a narrow body aircraft like the 717 or 737. For how long those pilots stay on that aircraft is anyone’s guess, but at this point hypothetically we are now halfway or more into your 10-15 year timeframe and you’ve spent the majority of your time flying regionally.
So, my question for you is would you still be happy flying if you didn’t get the chance to fly “exclusively international” for Delta within 10-15 years?
I took my flight at SMF today in a sport cruiser N195PS. Conditions were partially cloudy over the Malibu area so no complex maneuvers today. I was still able to take control of the LSA and feel what it is like to control the plane and learn why each item functions. I have a great interest in cars and motorsports, during my free time I love to learn about various topics. I now know a considerable amount about engines, transmissions, suspension, aerodynamics, and generally how the car functions as one package. During my pre-flight lesson I was amazed of how much of those skills transfer over—especially aerodynamics. From the engine to the braking system it was all familiar. Creating lift is the enemy in road cars but a friend in aviation. Almost all the gauges were familiar to me including oil pressure, CHT, coolant temperature, tachometer, etc. Going over the pre-flight inspection was intriguing as well, inspecting fuel, rudders, ailerons, etc. We briefly discussed radio calls and how to properly communicate your desires such as take off, landing, and spotting traffic through the phonetic alphabet. Controlling the LSA was as expected except for the sensitivity of the stick. A couple millimeters creates big changes; an inch here is a mile there. When piloting the LSA myself, using all the gauges and looking out the canopy required all my attention. I took many notes and overall I greatly enjoyed my experience. My instructor was impressed with my control for never being in an aircraft—even for recreational flight. He stated I would make a great pilot, hearing those words were kind and reassuring to say the least. To conclude, my experience only pushed the envelope and I now feel much more confident in a future in aviation.
Thank you,
Omar Ghonim
Postscript: I am not one to have feelings of vertigo however during turbulent areas of the flight—specifically when experiencing negative G’s I experienced partial symptoms of vertigo including mild nausea and lightheadedness. I did not need the feel to have the flight stopped or to vomit. Is this something that will be a problem or will this be something I get used to?
You really should not have been experiencing negative G’s, at least not much of them anyways. I think doing so is enough to make anybody feel sick to their stomach if they are not used to it. You will probably get used to the sensation of flying a small airplane over time, the vast majority of people do. Give it another flight if you are really worried about it.
You’re not going to like my response but I’m very certain I know your problem. You talk about the "G"s, you talk about being familiar with the instruments, understanding the flight controls and the sensitivity of them, communication, etc etc etc. Problem is you took an INTRO flight. You’re not a pilot. Not even close. The Intro flight has one goal and only one goal, to INTRODUCE you to the training environment. Trust me you’re not alone but for some reason many people view this as a job interview or some gateway to see if they have “the Right Stuff”. They study for it, read up and want to dazzle their instructor with their skills and knowledge. In my experience the people who look upon the experience as anything more than just a joyride (which is what it should be) almost 100% of the time get airsick. They’re trying so hard, trying to focus, trying to interpret, trying to understand while their body is experiencing forces it never has and can’t make sense of. If they would simply relax, breath, LOOK OUTSIDE so their bodies could reconcile and process what actually happening they wouldn’t get sick, they’d have a much better and much more productive and positive experience.
Pilots are made, not born. It takes time and it’s a process and most important it’s supposed to be fun. Next time you try I challenge you to simply relax, less looking inside, more outside, and most important have no goal other than enjoying the experience I promise you you’ll feel much better. Unless you’re just someone who gets airsick
I want to start by thanking you for your response as well as the others, Hannah, Chris, and Tory. Of course you all exceed my knowledge easily by a factor of 10 or more. This is why I want to ask and learn from whom I assume are the best, or at least the most experienced. When I have a passion or drive for a particular area of study, recreational or not I want to exceed expectations. My philosophy is to pursue the best version of yourself by any means necessary. I saw the introductory flight as an opportunity to learn as well as feel what it’s like to be in an aircraft for the first time. I want to highlight the fact that I do not mean to be pretentious or pompous in any regard. I stated in my previous response with the fact that I have never even been in an aircraft—even recreationally. I simply try to seize the moment of opportunity to extract as much information as possible. I want to be able to take pride in my work especially if my name is on it. I believe that there’s a bit of tension between these exchanges of words due to the fact that you open with, “You’re not going to like my response…” and follow with implicit remarks in the following sentences. I do not once claim to be a pilot, cadet, or to be even scratching the surface of obtaining a PPL. I only mentioned my experience and what I was thinking in an attempt to be more relatable to an audience in which I assume are familiar with each item I listed. I only want to fully utilize every resource possible, not take shortcuts to act as if I’m one of you. That being stated I am not opposed to hearing any constructive criticism, how can we improve ourselves without realizing our faults after all? I will see if I can visit SMF once again or even start my PPL. I will try to gain more airtime to see if this captivating experience is something that will later reveal to be short lived.
"I believe that there’s a bit of tension between these exchanges of words due to the fact that you open with, “You’re not going to like my response…”
Omar,
There was no tension intended on my part (I was simply stating my belief and experience in the forum) and based on your response I was correct. I understand where you were coming from, it was not a critique, just an observation again based on years of experience. There a very physical component to flying that isn’t found in most other highly technical fields which is one of the reasons many very intelligent and educated people have issues (it’s not law, medical or engineering school. Not saying it’s harder, just different).
Regardless you’re free to take my advice or leave it, but know my intentions were simply to give you some perspective.
When I read your post, it does come across that you have a lot to prove, but I could also tell that you were passionate and perhaps were just trying to relate your experience to other things that you are familiar with which is fine. I can tell that your intentions were good despite how it comes across.
The most important part is that you had a positive experience which it sounds like you did aside from the negative Gs. As the others have said, the instructor shouldn’t have introduced you to any negative Gs in the first place. So, either the instructor was bored (and unprofessional) or the negative Gs that you experienced were just the momentary negative Gs from turbulence?
Anyhow, please let us know how your next flight goes in SMF? Are you sure that is where you flew? SMF is Sacramento International.
It may seem like I am one who has “something to prove” but truthfully I do not want to convey that message. I want to verse myself in aviation as much as I reasonably can so I know that I am making a conscious and sound decision in my life should I want to pursue this path. I don’t want to trump my mentors in any capacity, I apologize if that is what you see. I can recognize when others like yourselves have the potential to teach me and it’s not in my best interest to give them a reason to greet me with resentment.
I only felt these negative G’s during the decent of our flight when we were in turbulent zones. My instruction was great and very cordial, I don’t think he would do this on purpose or without reason.
The school SMF is Santa Monica Flyers, they have their own airport adjacent to LAX filled with LSAs and propellor based planes. I am not sure if they use this for private flights or as official airport. It seemed that it was mostly reserved for the flight school and not commercial use.
Sorry for any confusion, but I still want to thank you all. I am currently taking summer courses, however, I do plan sprinkling out lessons throughout my academic studies to have my PPL finished when I graduate.
It’s good to hear there are no ill intentions in your words. To me it seemed that you had written me off as “someone who took an intro flight and now he think he’s a pilot.” I didn’t want to be perceived with disdain… I am just trying. I want to put in as much effort as I can so that I can be like the ones I admire—ones like yourself. A slap of reality can be looked at 2 ways, misery or an opportunity for change. I always want to change for the better even if I’m told the uncomfortable truths so I am not mad by your response. I felt I needed to give you justification as to why I wasn’t deserved of those remarks.
I was gravitated towards aviation because I feel that I’m good with my hands more so than my head. There’s a different connection with the physical like you stated. When I’m trying to push my car around a corner as fast as possible, I’m feeling out the limit of grip, making small corrections throughout and I get feedback in real time. Knowledge of the machine you are trying to operate assists me when I need justification for corrections or changes in the way I handle it. This is why I wanted to dive in as much as I could in aviation, not to prove anything, but because I’m trying my best.
Still I want to hear whatever it may be from you, Hannah, Chris or Tory, even if they are the uncomfortable truths.
For now I will finish school and keep this all in mind. If there are any new topics of discussion that warrant a new post I will be sure to ask, and look your responses especially.
