Working on Weekends

I am 35 years old, have my PPL, and currently work as a PA-C in California. I am looking to make a career change.

I make roughly $80/hr and have a job that will allow me to work only Saturdays and Sundays for 12 hours per day. This means that I can support myself very comfortably during flight training if flight training were only done Monday through Friday.

I love the ATP community, airline pathways, and have already been approved with an attractive rate through Sallie Mae. I’d like to work during the weekends and do the program in Riverside, CA which is only 30 minutes from where I live and work. Right now, the only thing holding me back is the fact that ATP seems to not allow me to make that ~$7500/mo while in the program.

Is this something that is negotiable if I accept the fact that it might take me longer than 6 months to finish?

My other option is to move back in with my Mom and do the training in Scottsdale. But, that ~$50,000 of lost income is really a huge deal in the long run. Can someone from ATP or another student give me advice on this? Is ATP just not the right school for me?

Chris

Chris,

Let’s be clear, ATP does not prohibit anyone from working. It’s you’re future and your $65k. What ATP will not do is tolerate students being unprepared or trying to attempt to lengthen the program. It’s 6 mos with credit for your PPL. ATP is taking years worth of training and compressing it into months. Most people find it extremely challenging even without working and others have tried, busted checkrides and put their future careers in question. It’s for that reason we strongly advise against it.

That said as always you can do as you like but you have been warned and failure to keep up and you will be asked to leave. Your call.

Adam

So, what happens if I’m scheduled to work Sat/Sun and the only available x-country is on a weekend?

I mean, that’s not really my call is it?

Chris

Chris,

That’s a great question and what would you do? Its your call and it’s YOUR problem. What if it’s the only available date for the DE to do your checkride and they can’t get another slot for a month? I don’t think you’re getting the point. ATP requires a full commitment from you. Training comes first. If it can’t and you find yourself unavailable your instructor will report that to admin. If it interferes with your training enough you’ll be asked to leave.

Listen there are plenty of flight schools who’ll let you work when you want, take your time and also take 2 years to complete. It’s your decision but again you’ve been cautioned.

Adam

Adam,

My best friend has been a pilot for Southwest for > 10 years now. He tells me stories about what it’s like being in the cockpit with another random pilot for hours on end and how the conversations can go. I know we’ve never met, but I feel like I know you very well. :smiley:

What I am getting from your replies is that ATP expects you to be available 7 days a week and working while in the program is generally not possible if you want to do well.

What do you think the time value of completing the training 6 months earlier than doing it part time is?

So, let’s say I worked while getting my CFII over a period of 12 months rather than not working and doing it for 6 months.

How much more ACTUAL seniority would I received by doing an ATP program and then SkyWest or Envoy cadet programs vs doing it at a 61 without a partnership and taking 12 months instead of 6 months?

Would my seniority start the day I am a CFI with ATP? So, is there a potential for 1-2 year seniority difference if I did it on my own while working vs doing it at ATP accelerated?

If so, the pay difference between that 1-2 years could potentially be 15-20k for that year correct and add up to even more as my career progressed right?

It seems to me, if ATP can get you actual seniority then the potential cost benefit of that is greater than the ~30k (after taxes) I would make by working while in the program?

Chris

Chris,

As a current Southwest pilot and former SkyWest (recruiter/interviewer/cadet mentor), I feel I may be able to give you some good insight.

First off, 6 months will make a HUGE difference. As you said, you’d be missing out on ~50k. Now compare that to the 6 months you’re missing out on at the end of a major pilot career (~200k). That 6 months is an overall loss of 150k at this point.

As for seniority - SENIORITY IS EVERYTHING. I know you’ve seen and heard that a million times, but it’s the truth. I don’t think you quite understand the cadet programs. None of them will allow you to gain “pilot seniority” while being a cadet. I can’t speak for Envoy, but with SkyWest, that date of hire affects flight benefits and all financial bonuses, as well as a few other things. It will not affect bidding. I had it help me quite a few times since I was one of the first people to join that program myself, and then becoming a mentor for it. You are eligible to join once you have a CFI rating - so whenever you attend the program is when that seniority would start. Again, this is specific to SkyWest’s program.

Overall, I think you need to realize the quicker, the better. Unless you are working a job making at least 300k a year, then the math will not play in your favor to extend your training at all. ATP is very intensive and your performance in the program will affect your entire career. I wouldn’t jeopardize that for anything. Good luck to you and feel free to ask more questions if you have them.

Jordan

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This is good information and I just need to take a longer term view of things. It’s tough after having a professional career for >10 years and making great money to convince yourself that moving into your parent’s house for 6 months is the right thing to do but it is time for a career change for me and I think ATP is the best accelerated option I have found so far. Now I just need my 1st class medical on Thursday and am looking forward to Saturday in Scottsdale. :smiley:

Thanks for you help and input!

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Christopher,

You got what I was saying perfectly. Listen, I understand the desire or need to keep working and for some not working simply isn’t an option. The thing it’s when we say seniority is everything it really is. One single seniority number can put you on either the right or wrong side of an upgrade, base selection or even furlough. The biggest problem is when you train part-time the time frame can quickly become very nebulas. This isn’t me trying to sell you on ATP but I am trying to sell you on training full time. There’s a reason why the airlines and the military both train daily. It’s because it works! When you train part-time it’s just too easy to let life get in the way. Further weather, aircraft/instructor availability can quickly derail the best of plans and that 1 year can become 2 without you even realizing it till after the fact.

You need to do what’s best for you but if you can train fulltime you should.

Adam

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Chris,

Pilots that had been hired six months after me at Continental were furloughed for three years (beginning in 2008) while I never was. A few months made a huge difference in their careers.

Remember that passing check rides is a big deal in this industry, repeated failures do not look good. If you are trying to squeeze in twelve hour shifts on the weekends, instead of studying or resting, something is going to suffer and it will most likely be your check ride performance. You will be spending a lot of money on flight training, I would not take the chance of maybe hurting your career down the road.

Chris

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This question is not quantifiable since one seniority number can make all the difference.

Tory

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This string is really good. When I make the leap I will need to minimize missteps to limit the damage to my family’s financial well-being and make the change to a cockpit career most beneficial. I’m coming from a 24 year military background with many “all-in”/'immersive" training courses during that time. Your discussion points about cutting the crap and dedicating yourself to the goal is making a lot of sense. Thanks. I’m kind of stuck in the military for two more years, and given your discussion points here I think I want to shave some time off the front end of the training since I can get my PPL and Instrument done locally where I am in MSY. Chris/Tory, I see where I can start ATP with my PPL already done, is there an chance I can start the program at the Crew Experience stage by already having my Instrument Rating? I can’t see mention of that in the training discussions or on the ATP website. If that was allowed I’d be six months ahead of the “From Zero Time” training option. Thanks.

Phillip,

We’ve had several students come in at my location with their instrument rating and they have not been able to bypass the instrument phase. What they do at the end instead of a checkride is an IPC and then they move on. However, you do have the option to skip the Crew Experience stage if you already have enough hours that by the time you complete the Commercial Single phase, you meet the requirements for getting your Commercial license. This is what two of them decided to do and moved right into Commercial which saved them anywhere from 2-4 weeks. One did not however and he still completed crew in a timely fashion.

Hope that helps,

Caleb

Phillip,

Caleb’s answer is spot on. One thing I’ll add is although it may be frustrating for someone to have to redo the instrument portion of their training, all those hours still go towards your ATP/RATP.

Tory

I’m a runner and we have a similar saying when it comes to training for a race: There are no wasted miles. On those days when you go for a run and feel you didn’t get much from it other than sweat…in the scheme of things running was better than sitting on the couch…all miles are good miles! Even if I have to “re-do” Instrument…the hours from the previous flying for instrument are still “good hours” toward the end goal of 1,500.

Thanks!

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Perfect analogy! :raised_hands:t3:

Philip,

Yes, the extra instrument hours would still count in your logbook, but you will have significant added expenses and it will not do a thing to get you any further ahead in your timeline. I would focus on getting your PPL and then finishing your writtens. There is no sense in spending money that you do not need to.

Chris

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I’m in the same position Chris. I’m in my early 30s and work as a respiratory therapist but looking to switch careers. From the responses it looks like we are better off just not working and committing to the program 100%. It is 6 months lost in part time wages for us but better that than to fail out or even worse, get into a crash down the road because of skill inadequacies. Lives will be in our hands again so we should just take this as seriously as we do our jobs.

Hello,
I have a question: I am currently an active duty USAF with few months left on my contract. I plan on switching to the reserve side USAF and hopes to enroll with ATP. Considering the intensity of ATP program, and the USAF RESERVE work schedule (One weekend /month; two weeks/year). Do you think it is idle or not to be in the Military Reserve whiles enrolled to ATP. Please advise.

Seth,

Hopefully some others with actual experience will chime in but I know it has been done. While we generally discourage any work while going through the program, if you can make sure to do your 2 weeks of drill either before or after the program the one weekend a month should be manageable.

Adam

Seth,

ATP will gladly work around your reserve commitments. Of course it will slightly stretch the length of your program out, but many before you have done it successfully.

Chris