Reality of getting hired after ATP Flight School

Airline Pilot Questions & Answers
22

Hi Mark. Sorry I am just now seeing this. I am doing well. Just about to head to flight instructor school in Atlanta. Overall, the training has gotten me the certificates promised. So that’s what matters I suppose. Was it in 6 months? No. Shortly after I finalized my loan with enough funds for 6 months, ATP changed the course time to 9 months. So that was irritating to say the least. I’ve been struggling to make ends meet. In addition, scheduling has been a real challenge. I’m sure it depends on your instructor, but it’s very difficult to plan for anything outside of school in advance. My schedule is made day to day with little consideration for my life outside school. That said, if I ask for a day off, I usually get it. Just don’t try to plan for anything more than 2 days away. Again, I’m sure that depends on your instructor. Also, some instructors work on weekends, some don’t.

Regarding your question about if I’m satisfied with the way my future is looking; yes. I do know that times are going to be tough financially for a while, but ATP offers the tuition assistance which should help a lot. I’m not going that route though. I plan to instruct at a different school making $30 dollars an hour for a few months then work for a charter at around 500 hours hopefully flying a jet to build that jet time early. The goal is to get to the majors ASAP and I’ll have 1000 more hours of jet time than ATP students who stayed with ATP for 1500 hours, If that makes any sense. In other words, I would advance from the regionals quicker (ideally). But at any rate, be prepared to be making very little financially. But you’re flying, so that kinda makes up for it, right?!

Yes, I have no doubt that I’ll get a job. ATP is well respected. From what I hear, ATP instructors interview very well. And having all your CFI certificates looks very good. As far as the pilot shortage goes, we can only hope things stay the way they are for a while. I have noticed a huge increase in students joining ATP, so I think a lot of people are catching on and joining the band wagon.

I can’t think of much else. I will say for me there’s definitely been highs and lows during my training. It’s not all fun. It’s definitely not fun sometimes. But you just gotta stick with it and remember why you started. That feeling when you first flew an airlplane. I haven’t had a chance because I’m poor, but I’d recommend renting a plane now and then during your training just to take a joyride. Training can get tough and wear you down, so just going up for the fun of it would really be nice.

Lastly, I don’t have a wife and kids, but i do have a girlfriend who lives a couple hours away. It’s not going to just be tough for you, it’s going to be tough for them too. Like I said, you’re not going to have much of a life outside of school, no money coming in, and planning is very difficult. So make sure they’re aware of all that and they’re on board. And give them the props they deserve for supporting you and putting up with it!

Oh one more thing you should know. The tuition assistance offered by ATP and certain regionals comes out of the signing bonus you get when you join the airline. So You will get it either way, whether you choose to sign a contract with the airlines at 500 hours and continue instructing with ATP or not. There are pros and cons to both. Pros for taking the assistance include greatly reducing your monthly loan payment while you’re instructing, and the money is TAX FREE! The cons are you have to stay with ATP for 1500 hours and you’re locked into an airline a year before you start working for that airline. So if you don’t choose to take the tuition assistance, you will still get that money in a signing bonus with whatever airline you go with. But you will pay income tax on that money.

Hope this helps! Good luck,

Will

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23

Will,

To interject a bit here. If you fly charters starting at 500 hours, you will have 1,000 more hours of jet time than an instructor does, but it is not going to matter one bit for the major airlines. The majors really want to see Captain jet time and you will not be getting that at your charter company. The airlines also know that 500 hour corporate First Officers usually do not actually fly the airplane very much and instead spend their time talking on the radios, washing airplanes, setting up rental car reservations, etc. Also, corporate pilots usually do not fly nearly as much in a month as a flight instructor will, so it will take longer to build the hours. You will still most likely need to go to a regional and go through the normal chain of progression there before moving onto the majors. I am not trying to dissuade you from the corporate route, just pointing that it will not get you to a major any quicker and in fact might take longer.

I would also point your schedule with ATP is made day to day because there are so many variables in aviation, weather by far being the biggest issue, but also aircraft maintenance and FAA examiner availability. You signed up for a highly condensed program, even at the nine month threshold. There are programs that will be more willing to schedule around your personal life, but they will take several years longer.

Chris

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24

Thanks for your Opinion, Chris!

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Adam, to clarify the point here: the 1,500 hours technically does qualify an applicant to apply at a mainline carrier? In other words, purely from a flight time perspective, the 1,500 flight time an ATP graduate walks away after completing the ATP Flight School program doesn’t disqualify him from applying at a mainline? Thanks.

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Theron,

Ok let’s try and clear this up. First you will not graduate from ATP with 1500hrs, you’ll complete the program with approx. 230 of actual flight time. 1500 is ALOT of hours and those hours need to be built over time (typically by flight instructing and it usually takes about 2yrs). Now the reason for the 1500hrs is in order to fly for any Part 121 carrier in the US (basically any scheduled airline, Regional or Major) you need to earn your ATP (Airline Transport Pilot license) which requires a min of 1500hrs. If you get hired at a Regional they will then complete the ATP CTP (course required to earn your ATP) as part of your newhire training, while ALL Majors require you to already have your ATP. Now technically you could take the ATP CTP on your own and apply to a Major BUT you will not get hired. The Majors are the Big Leagues and they want pilots with experience. In simple terms why would they hire a brand new flight instructor with 1500hrs when then can hire a Regional Jet Capt with 6,000? The answer is the wouldn’t.

Make sense?

Adam

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27

Thanks for clearing this up, Adam. Two additional questions:

  1. When joining a regional, is the ATP-CPT license is completed within the first few months of onboarding (before flying for the company?). I notice most regionals stipulate on their hiring pages that the ATP CTP training can be provided for “qualified/successful candidates.” What do they mean by “succesful/qualified” (ie: successful as in getting an offer with the regional carrier, they will cover the cost of ATP-CPT)?

  2. I understand from your response that mainline carriers desire to see PIC time on prospective applicants incoming from regionals. However, it appears they don’t specify this in their requirements posted on their hiring pages sometimes? For example, one mainline carrier currently states “minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed-wing turbine time” and another “2,000 hours total flight time in a fixed wing aircraft.” I’m curious to understand why they don’t specify how this time should be allocated. Any insight?

Thanks.

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Theron,

  1. As I said above, the Regional will include the ATP CTP as part of your newhire training. Of course this is accomplished BEFORE you actually fly for the airline as it would violate the FARs if they didn’t. As far as the “qualified/successful” candidates goes that’s basically the lawyers getting involved. Obviously it should go without saying but this country is lawsuit and entitlement happy and if they just stated ATP CTP training can/will be provided inevitably some wiseguy will say “you stated you’ll give me my ATP CTP, no one said anything about me being hired” soooooo…

  2. That’s simply to give the airline some flexibility in it’s hiring should they so chose. If Delta wants to hire CEO’s son or some Marine One flying Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, even though they only have the bare min hours they can do so without breaking/bending any rules. It also allows them to adjust their hiring based on supply and demand. Right now there’s a ton of Regional Capt available with 5,000+ hours so why not pick the cream of the crop. Should the supply dry up sure the can/will lower the bar. For now there are “competitive mins” which ALL state turbine PIC time and mins over 5,000.

Adam

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Hi all,
Thanks for helpful thread. Will - nice to see your progression from first time poster to old hand in 12 months :wink:
I’m from Scotland, currently mid way through my EASA PPL here. Wife is American, moving to US later this year, hence considering AllATP for the rest of my training.

3 questions;

  1. AllATP Locations - are people’s experiences more or less the same wherever they go? Ogden UT & Centennial CO are 2 closest options for where I’ll be, seems (if my recon on flightradar24 is right) that things in Denver are much busier. Is that better/worse/irrelevant for either training or instructing/hour building phase? I’ve asked this question on the phone a couple times and answer is always a standard “the training is exactly same at every location”. Not very illuminating.

  2. This may not be the right forum, but here in UK met a few instructors who figure the career is rougher in the US compared to UK/Europe. Met ppl in US who say the opposite. Certainly some folks would rather just believe they’ve got the best gig going and believe it because they want to. But objectively, anybody got any factual comparisons to share on the two, especially hiring/progression rates?

  3. The 1500h rule isn’t going anywhere, right? Got friends here in UK who’ve been hired to FO on 737s after 200-250h, Very different here. I can stomach the 1500h in the US, so long as it doesn’t get scrapped the next year. Just come across the idea a couple times here & there in articles, all in the context of ‘the pilot shortage’.

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Pete,

  1. ATP tries very hard to standardize the locations as much as possible. The student experience should be the same no matter where you go. The answer you are getting on the phone is not meant to hide anything from you, it is the truth. You will be exposed to a wide variety of experiences in all aspects of flying over the course of your cross countries and regular training flights. ATP has been in business for a long time, they know where to put locations and how to make them standardized, it is one of the keys to their success.

  2. I really have no factual data to compare US and EU jobs, you could consider reaching out to IALPA on that one.

  3. No, the rule is not changing, it was a law passed by Congress and has stood up to significant pressure from the regional airline industry. The hard facts of the matter is that there has not been a fatal US airline crash since the law took effect, so it seems that it is helping. I personally do not see this changing at all. As an aside, I would not want to get on a 737 that a 200 hour pilot was flying, no matter how good they are. There is just no substitute for experience.

Chris

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Pete,

Just to chime in:

  1. What Chris said. ATP works hard to standardize it’s training throughout the system. Pick a location that works for you convenience, weather and family etc wise.

  2. This debate has gone on for many years but I’ll give you my $.02. There are MANY European pilots who come to the US for training and work and virtually none who go the other way. It can be argued that’s because it’s very difficult to get a work permit in Europe but since 9/11 you can’t get a flying job in the US if you’re not a citizen/permanent resident so that’s a wash. What I do know from speaking to my European friends is training in Europe (particularly the UK) is ridiculously expensive and lengthy in Europe vs the US which is why the Majority of them came here. Second while we do have the 1500hr Rule here vs Europe, the shortage here is so bad that as long as you successfully complete your training and have a clean record, you WILL get hired by an airline.

  3. Not going to change. There have been some cutouts made for the military etc and yes the RAA (Regional Airline Association) has been asking for some relief but you need to understand where this rule came from. The Rule was put in place after a particularly horrific crash back in 2009 (Colgan 3407) which caused a very visceral/emotional reaction by the public. Anytime any attempts are made to change reverse it the victims families are incredibly vocal and it gets squashed immediately. Factor in it’s helped drive up pilot salaries and you have our nations pilot union protesting it as well. Again not going anywhere.

Adam

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Thanks Adam, thanks Chris, both helpful and insightful responses, I’ll be back if I’ve more questions.

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Chris just looked up the IALPA reference - I presume that there’s some good ol American humour, if I’m interpreting you correctly! But yes, valid example. what a mess.

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Pete,

I miss-typed. I thought that ALPA international was called the International Association of Airline Pilots, apparently it is now called ALPA, International.

I am not sure what website you found, but there was no humor intended.

Chris

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HA! IALPA is the Irish airline pilots association - so assumed you were making a thinly veiled joke about the recent Ryanair debacle. Which wouldn’t have been an unreasonable response to the question :wink:

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Supply and demand :slight_smile:

Adam

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Pete,

The Ryan Air incident is a classic example of how labor unions can be much stronger in the US, even in today’s environment. As pilots, we work under something called the Railway Labor Act, which prohibits companies from having different contracts with different bases, like Ryan Air does. In the US, all of an airline’s pilots work under one contract, regardless of where they are based.

Chris

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Chris,

About 8 years ago I had a DUI with a refusal and had to pay a ton of money, lost my driving privileges for a year, but haven’t had any type of infraction since then. After a few hoops to jump through, I was able to receive my first-class medical and now I’m three weeks from my PPL check ride. I plan on going straight to the next step and getting on the fast track to flying professionally. I have my financing setup for ATP School and class picks-up this April. I’m gung-ho about this school and diving-in head first, but have some reservations regarding my past driving history. If I plan to fly for RAVN Alaska to build my hours after graduating ATP school, what type of set-backs, if any, should I anticipate? I figured I would consult you and Adam before signing-up for $55K. I really appreciate your input and value your opinion and direction with this decision.

Respect,

Tyson

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Tyson,

DUIs are certainly not a good thing, obviously. But, in today’s hiring environment if you have an otherwise clean record, I think you will be able to be hired at the regional level. The majors might be a different story, it will really depend on how clean your criminal and FAA records are, along with how well you interview and can own your situation and explain how you have grown and learned from it.

Chris

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Tyson,

As Chris said DUIs are not a good thing (young or otherwise) and also as he said in the current environment (as long as you do well in training AND have no other issues) you should have no problem getting hired at a Regional right now. They need bodies. Again to second Chris the Majors can be a different story. The idea is to put as much time and checks on the plus side to counter the fairly large check you have on the negative side. Right or wrong luck may also have something to do with it. I have a friend who’s on the hiring panel for a Legacy carrier in the US. His brother was killed by a drunk driver. If someone shows up with a DUI in front of him they’re done, end of story.

Adam

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I’m in the same boat as a lot of prospectives having a kid, mortgage, etc. My question for those that were ATP flight instructors is how long did it take you to accumulate the 1500 and what was the instructor salary like? I can only afford to take so much of a hit for so long I come wise.