Considering a career change. I need some advice

Airline Pilot Questions & Answers
1

Yes, this is sort of another “Am I Too Old?” post, however from what I’ve read over the past three weeks, I know that I’m not too old to pursue this. I just need to know how to approach it.

To start with, I’m a 42.5-year-old Private Pilot SEL/VFR with 400 hours. I have unrestricted access to a Wittman Tailwind, C-152, C-172, and C-210 (though I have not been endorsed to fly the C-210).

I’m not happy with my day job. I’ve come to the realization that I spend a lot of my passing moments at work (machinist/CNC operator) thinking about the weekend when I can go flying.

I live about 45 minutes away from Central Washington University which has a “partnership” with Horizon Air through their Pilot Pathways Program. I’ve read a lot of unfavorable stuff online about this program; things like “marketing gimmick” and “recruiting scam”, but they come from other aviation forums where I’ve noticed many of the posts are more cynical in nature than what I’ve read on this forum. I don’t know if that stuff is posted by bitter old folks, disgruntled young folks, or people that really know what they’re talking about.

The aviation program at CWU is a 4-year Bachelor of Science degree. The flight training fees would be $62,000 and the annual tuition is about $9,000 which would put this 4-year program at close to $100,000. The soonest I can begin classes is September 2019 when I am 43.5 years old, but the deadline for being accepted into that program is December 1, 2018.

I own a home in the Yakima area so moving isn’t something I want to consider.

I’m going to be talking to a Horizon/Alaska recruiter later this week and I would like to know what specific questions I should have regarding their Pilot Pathways Program.

Based on everything I have read here and on other forums, I have ample time to become a Q400 Captain and fly until I’m 65. The possibility of becoming a 737 Captain for Alaska doesn’t seem very likely. That’s okay with me. I would be happy flying a Cessna Caravan for FedEx.

The main reason I have considered the “Horizon” route is because the school they partner with is nearby and they have some tuition reimbursement and sign-on bonus perks that would greatly help with paying back student loans.

I’m having a tough time figuring out actual wages for Horizon pilots so I don’t quite know what to expect, but I can say with a fair bit of confidence that I’d be happier earning $15/hr as a pilot than $20/hr as a machinist.

Anyway, there’s no shortage of encouragement on these forums and I’ve been reading about aviation careers obsessively for the past few weeks. I know a recruiter’s job is to recruit and they can say anything to “butter up” their prospects, so I’d like to get some input/pointers/advice from any mentors who are familiar with my situation.

Feel free to comment or ask me anything.

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My apologies.

I never realized that this website was affiliated with ATP Flight School (though I did notice it gets mentioned a lot). I saw AirlinePilot.life in the title and thought this was a place for all pilots.

I understand if the moderators need to delete my post if it violated any rules. It wasn’t my intention to bring a competing school into the picture.

I’m sorry.

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Dorian,

No apologies. Despite the fact this is ATPs forum all are welcome. While all the mentors are former ATP and therefore have an affection for the program, none of us are salesmen nor are we trying to do anything other then pay forward good advice we’ve all received.

Now let’s talk about your situation. First off forget about Gateway programs and affiliations. The US (and the rest of the world) is experience one of the greatest pilot shortages in history. In the past there were little guarantees for ANYTHING in the industry. Just getting an interview was a challenge. But when demand is HIGH and supply is LOW, well things change dramatically. People who never had a shot (DUIs, arrest records, checkride busts, etc) are now getting sucked up (which is not necessarily a good thing from my POV but whatever). Anyway what I’m saying is if you get your licenses and ratings, then build the required 1500hrs you will get hired by the Regional of your choice regardless of where you trained or not.

Next, I don’t necessarily agree that you have no shot at Alaska Capt BUT if that’s ultimately your goal why are you going to waste the next 4yrs getting a degree you don’t need? In fact by doing that you’re pretty much making certain you won’t. Horizon doesn’t require a degree and Alaska (while it’s preferred) doesn’t either. I’ll apologize now, I told you I’m not a salesman, and I’m not but seriously, you’re the PERFECT ATP candidate. Let’s analyze this. Go to CWU (in a YEAR?!?) then graduate 4yrs later at 47-48, STILL need to build flight time so add another year and finally start flying for Horizon at 49? OR go to ATP NOW (or whenever you’re ready). Complete ALL your training in 6mos, work as a CFI for another year (or less) and get hired by Horizon by 44. That gives you another 5yrs of seniority, the chance to get to Alaska by 50-51 AND have a legitimate shot at fulfilling your dream and gets you out of the machine shop. Btw, if you want to be more "competitive for Alaska you could always get an aviation degree online with credit for your licenses and ratings WHILE you’re flying for Horizon but it’s probably not necessary, your call.

Don’t like ATP? Fine, there are other accelerated programs out there, but seriously at 42 you’re not old but you’re not young either. You could have a very nice 20yr career if you get moving. Give it some thought.

Adam

4 Likes
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Dorian,

You came to the right place. What you will find here is just plain, honest advice with no sales pitch.

It sounds great to say “I would be happy flying a caravan”, but why limit yourself to that? You are not young, but you are not really past the point of a major airline being out of the question either. Sure, flying a Caravan is fun, but flying a 737 is a lot more fun and it certainly pays better. I wouldn’t limit yourself to the regionals just yet.

With that in mind, I think you should focus on getting your ratings as soon as possible and that means avoiding any four year programs. You do not need a degree to work for the regionals, so if that is as far as you want to go, that is a waste of time and you will have plenty of time while flying for the regionals if you later decide that you want to shoot for the majors.

I would not be too concerned about any partnerships right now. The regionals are all desperate for pilots. Meet their qualifications and you should be fine.

Chris

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Dorian,

The pay scales on APC are the current pay rates for Horizon.
https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/horizon_air

Let me know if you have any specific questions about Horizon.

Tory

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Wow, thanks for all the info! I wasn’t aware things could happen that fast. I’ll take all this advice to heart. I had compiled a list of questions that I was going to ask CWU and the Horizon recruiter. I guess I’ll make a new list for ATP! This site has been a great resource.

Now off to work (3pm-2am in the machine shop). :roll_eyes:

1 Like
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Dorian,

Check out this link:

https://airlinepilot.life/t/questions-for-any-prospective-flight-school/

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Glenn,

Plenty of people change careers at your age, I would say it is actually fairly common.

I would say that if it is change you are looking for, beyond the initial change of careers, I am not sure how much you will find in aviation. Sure there are different routes and different types of flying, but at some point it can be like any other job. I am not saying this to try and dissuade you, just letting you know that on some level a job isn’t going to give you happiness.

That being said, I really enjoy my job :slight_smile:

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Never in my life have I spent so much time reading from a single website. I browse these forums on my laptop with my morning coffee, on my phone while on breaks at work, and on my iPad when I go to bed. The decision to attend ATP (most likely in Everett, WA which is about a 1-hour drive from my Dad’s house or a 1-hour flight from my airport) will not be one that I make lightly. I did fill out the “Request More Information” form on ATP’s website about two weeks ago. I got instant access to some study modules and have gone through them, but have not received anything in the mail.

While I believe I have what it takes to become a commercial pilot, the things I’ve read about the rigorous training at ATP are a bit daunting to me because I hate failure. For example, the website says if I show up to class unprepared, then they may send me home with a $75 fine. So what happens when I show up one day and it’s a topic that I simply don’t “get”? Are they gonna say, “Go home. Study some more. Come back tomorrow and be prepared to pay $75 as soon as you get here.”? It would be great if I could see what a week in the life of the ATP curriculum is like. I may need to take a day off work and drive over there and see everything for myself.

I think the most realistic time for me to start the program would be in March 2019. My 3rd class medical expires in January so I would plan to apply for the 1st class medical at that time. It would also give me time to get my written exams out of the way. One thing I’m uncertain about: do I need to be enrolled at ATP to take those exams? I can’t find test materials or study guides anywhere on the internet or FAA website for them. Another thing: when I took my Private Pilot exam in 2009, my instructor told me to read and memorize the questions and answers. That’s how I passed it. I was perusing the King’s website the other day and read a notification that rote memorization of the test material is no longer permitted on FAA tests! Is this true?

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Dorian,

First I’m glad you’re finding the forum beneficial (that’s the idea). To answer your first question there’s a HUGE difference between showing up unprepared and not understanding certain material. Your instructor is there to instruct, guide and mentor you and will go above and beyond to help you grasp the material. None of this information is intuitive. By contrast showing up unprepared is a waste of your instructors time and frankly is disrespectful. They’re there to do a job and it’s not an easy one. For the program to work you need to hold up your end of the bargain. I honestly wasn’t aware of any fines and I’m not sure if it’s something new (not sure how I feel about it?). Back when I was an instructor there were no fines but we did have a 3 strike rule. One time ok, 2nd time we’re going to have a serious conversation, 3rd time you’re gone and it would cost you much more than $75. In short no one expects you to know everything and if you out in the effort you’ll get it back. If you’re there to waste time it’ll cost you and eventually you’ll be gone. As far as visits ATP really doesn’t do tours at most locations and if you just show up there’s a good chance everyone will be flying. I’d give admin a call and see if they can’t arrange something?

This is America and you can take the written exams anytime you like HOWEVER to be given access to the training material you must be enrolled in the program. Obviously you’re welcome to purchase your own material but I’d save my money and wait. As for what the FAA no longer “permitting” rote memorization I don’t see how that could ever be possible unless the FAA assigns an examiner to every applicant and they babysit them 24/7. How you study and learn is your own business and is how EVERYONE still prepares for the Knowledge exams daily.

Adam

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I believe ATP uses Sheppard Air for all the ratings/licenses beyond private. Like Adam said though it is included in the ATP price so if you plan on attending ATP there is no reason to purchase the modules. The only reason to purchase them would be if you don’t plan on attending ATP.

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If memorization is still an option, then that would be great. This is the notification on King’s website:

king_notice
king_notice.png849×303 64.2 KB

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Dorian,

While I love John and Martha they have a business to run and it’s hard to sell a $500 course when people can find free rote stuff online. It is true the FAA is no longer publishing “exact” questions and answers but they haven’t gotten too creative either. Take a look at many of the posts on this forum regarding the writtens and you’ll see what the consensus is.

Adam

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Memorization is still the name of the game. Now what the Kings are saying is correct in that at some point, you will need to learn the information, but that will come later. For now, just memorize.