Let’s be very clear here, if there are instructors that are refusing to provide ground instruction, or giving attitude about doing so, this needs to be immediately brought to management’s attention. This is not acceptable, but the company cannot fix problems that they do not know about.
Chris
Especially now that ATP is paying $1,000 per month to each instructor for ground instruction. Assuming an average of 20 “work days” per month, that’s $50 a day to do ground instruction even if the plane never leaves the hangar. Sounds like it could be a “culture” issue, and I’m hoping the locations with culture problems are the exception.
“They only get paid for flight time so why would they?”
Ever hear of Alpa? The largest pilot union in the World? Pilots from the Majority of the airlines in the country have worked hard for decades to get better pay and better work rules. They defend pilots who suffer accidents, incidents and training failures, they aid the NTSB, they consult with the FAA and the gov’t regarding legislation, help pilots retain or get their medicals back, create jumpseat agreements, get better hotels for crews, etc etc etc. ALL are volunteers.
Adam
I would also point out generally speaking, airline pilots do not get paid for any of the work we do on the ground, but that certainly does not mean that we do a poor job of flight planning, preparing the airplane, or doing exterior inspections. While pilots get paid for flight time, all of the unpaid ground work is simply part of the job and as such we give that just as much attention as what we are actually paid to do. The same mentality should apply to flight instruction and if an instructor is not acting accordingly, then he or she needs to have their attitude adjusted or find another line of work.
Never heard of them but not sure what that has to do with flight instructors’ disinterest in ground instruction due to inadequate compensation. They are not volunteering to be flight instructors. It’s their job so it makes sense that they would rather spend time on things that reflect in their pay check. That was the point of my statement
Every location is different. Every instructor is different. Flight instruction is not a M-F 8-5 job. It’s not as simple as that.
I agree with you somewhat that the mindset should be the same but you can hardly compare an airline pilots total compensation package with that of an ATP instructor making 7.50 an hour with no benefits. And I know people say well, instructors are not supposed to be rich so deal with it. It is what it is but we can’t dent that’s part of the problem
Kevin,
First off you never heard them? The largest pilot group on the planet? Sounds like you have tremendous interest in your future career and have been doing your research so kudos.
Second, news flash, it IS part of the job and they’re supposed to do it. That’s the deal. Don’t like it? Don’t feel the compensation is adequate? It’s been a while but I don’t recall anyone at ATP ever putting a gun to anyone’s head. You see this is the problem, people accept a position but think it can all be done on THEIR terms. If you’re not happy, if you feel cheated, if you can do better than by all means do, but to smile, say thank you and accept the pay AND the hours and then not live up to the responsibility is cowardice, dishonest and lazy. IF you make it to an airline is that how you’ll view the job? “Well first year pay is weak so I’ll only put in half the effort”. Do you really think an ENTRY LEVEL pilot who’s ink is still wet on their ticket should be getting comparable compensation to an airline pilot? That statement alone is ridiculous. This is not about instructors are not supposed to rich so deal, again that IS the deal and it’s what you signed up for. Did you not do your research in this area either? Did you not know ENTRY LEVEL instructor (like MOST entry level positions don’t pay well. Ever hear of internships or did you miss that one too?). If in fact you didn’t know then shame on you. If you did but thought you were “special” and would buck the system then you were wrong. Don’t like it? Be a man and get out but stop trying to justify a lack of performance due to getting the “inadequate compensation” they ACCEPTED with the job.
Adam
Flight instructor pay has come up dramatically since Adam and I instructed. I am always amazed by the attitude of “I am not being paid as I think I should be, so I am going to slack and do a lousy job”. For one thing, a professional should take pride in their work and seek to do a good job no matter what the pay is. Secondly, at what point in the career does the pay become sufficient to do a good job? It is $80k, $100k, $200k? Where is that magic threshold? And thirdly, being a CFI is an entry level job, but it is one that leads to a very lucrative career, so again I ask, when does one start acting professionally?
Now I am not saying that there are not CFIs that have attitude problems, but they shouldn’t have them and again, I would bring those issues to management’s attention.
Chris
At some point, personal pride has to kick in, right? Not wanting to look in the mirror and know they’re half assing someone else’s future?
Peter,
You would think so but it’s all about ME! Blows my mind…
Adam
Hey Adam, no personal attacks please. I’m not defending anyone here. I’m not saying that instructors who do that don’t have a bad attitude. I am telling you what the reality is for instructors. You went to ATP forever ago and things have changed so has the industry. ATP pays the worst out of any flight school I’m not sure why you don’t want to admit that. No need to get all worked up about it and be rude about it. Shame on me for not knowing something? I’m sure you know everything about aviation. You don’t know me and I don’t know you so let’s be professional about how we address each other. You went to ATP a long tim
Peter yes, and there are some instructors who go above and beyond for their students because they know their students’ performance is a reflection of their work. But everyone has different motivations right? How many people do you think become instructors because they absolute love to teach? For most it’s just a means to an end. You’re going to get really good instructors but there are gonna be ones who don’t have their students’ interest in mind.
Kevin,
Again, I come back to that professionalism should not be tied to compensation. Adam and I did attend ATP some time ago and the pay was less then, but we still acted as consummate professionals and now we are both Captains at major airlines. So yes, we went through a few rough years, but we were professionals and it paid off in the end.
I would also point out that nobody forces CFIs to work for ATP or anywhere else and it isn’t always just about compensation. There is real value to working for a well respected school and one that has a steady stream of students at all levels. It isn’t always just about the money.
Chris
Chris I agree with you 100%. I personally believe in doing everything to the best of one’s ability or not at all. I’m only saying that I unfortunately it is true students are going to encounter instructors with a different take on this. But as you rightly said, the admin needs to know if you have such an instructor.
Kevin,
I’ve been following this conversation. I don’t know what your goal is. Nothing will come of this conversation. If anything, all you’ve done is drawn negative attention to yourself, and insulted highly respected airline pilots, which by the way, could care less about what you think. We volunteer our time to help those that are passionate about becoming professional pilots.
If a student feels like their instructor doesn’t have their best interest in mind, that student should speak up, as Chris already stated.
Yes. Adam and Chris went to ATP a while ago. I didn’t. I was there last year. Frankly, it doesn’t matter. ATP is the largest flight school in the nation. You can have whatever opinion you want about ATP, but they didn’t become the leader in flight training by making mediocre, underpaid pilots. Also, ATP doesn’t hide anything from the public about compensation. Every instructor should know what they are getting themselves into.
Tory
Really? ANY flight school in the country? I won’t admit that because it isn’t true. More important let’s just say it is. THEN DON’T INSTRUCT THERE! It’s that simple.
As for attacks you’re the one who came on this forum with the attitude (and before you deny that “never heard of them but not sure what that has to do with flight instructors disinterest” isn’t attitude? Oh and I almost forgot your “I’m sure you know everything about aviation”). In one breath you say how you understand and even justify it due to inadequate compensation and in the next you’re back pedaling to Chris “personally I believe in doing everything to the best of my ability or not at all and it’s unfortunate others don’t”. So is it unfortunate or not? Is it understandable or not? I’ll help you out, it’s not and it doesn’t matter whether you finished the program last week or 20yrs ago, doing a substandard job REGARDLESS OF COMPENSATION is NEVER ok. The fact is there will always be some pilots who ARE professionals and others who complain and make excuses. You can believe whatever you like I know which I am.
Adam
Tory,
You’re a vegetarian aren’t you? 
Adam
Please show me where I insulted anyone and I’ll be more than happy to apologize. And since you were there last year would you mind sharing how many hours of ground you provided a day for your students so prospective students could have an idea?
Hard to say how many hours of ground per day, but my mentality was to provide however much ground that was required to get my students check ride ready. Looking back at my records I gave about 60-70 hours of ground for the PPL, 15-20 hours for PMEL, 30 hours for IR, 30-40 for CMEL, 10-15 for CSEL add on. These hours were per student.
Tory