I am deciding whether to attend Phoenix East Aviation or ATP, both in Daytona Beach. Phoenix would be a 70k loan, ATP 92k. Seeking advice because I find myself stuck and want to enroll and start in October. Any info or advice would be helpful. To help you with giving advice or thoughts, final goals are working for regionals and then majors.
Thank you!
William,
First and foremost if you take a look at the top of this forum you’ll clearly see the ATP logo. This is ATP’s forum and all the mentors are successful ATP grads so obviously we’ve got some bias.
I’ve heard the name Phoenix East over the years but frankly don’t know anyone who attended. I took a quick look at their website and I’m not sure which program of theirs you’re looking at but I’m not sure your numbers are correct? The only comparable program I saw to ATP’s was their Professional Pilot III which is actually more expensive. You don’t state if you have your PPL or not but if you need it they don’t list a price for theirs? They also list the FAA mins for a Private which is always a red flag since earning it in 40hrs is VERY unrealistic. Personally I’ve never been a fan of students training in pilot uniforms. The uniform is something you earn when you get hired by an airline. EARNING your first pair of epaulets is a significant moment in any pilot’s life. Receiving them after you pay a deposit (as a sales ploy) diminishes that. I also noticed in their list of “recent hire airlines” they listed Pan Am? Really? Anyway I could go on but as I said I’m biased.
The single biggest thing that gives me pause is there are no Regional alliances listed? ATP pioneered the Regional partnerships a long time ago but frankly they’ve become commonplace. The Regionals are so desperate for pilots they’ve been partnering with mom and pop schools just to grab an extra body. Where are PEA’s?
While every local flight school has converted to the ATP model in recent years offering “Professional Pilot Programs” ATP created years ago. Their grads have been getting hired for decades and I know literally hundreds personally. They do what they do better than anyone which is what drew me to the program. It’s fast, prepares you for airline training and they have an exceptional reputation in the industry. I’m not knocking PEA but I’d look at those numbers again.
Adam
I recommend you go and check out both schools in person. If it is still too close to call, do yourself a favor and apply for financing at both. You won’t know the actual numbers, rates, etc., until you get your lending disclosure. It may be a difference of several thousand dollars over the course of the loan.
I considered PEA, ATP, and L3 in Sanford and I chose ATP. It was the best choice for my circumstances of the three. PEA advertises a very abbreviated program with an FAA exemption but is very light on info about actual completion rates or any info on their site for that matter. I also have heard from an unaffiliated party who knew both ATP and PEA operations that PEA had more of a foreign student focus. I noticed some of that in their promotional literature. Not unlike ATP they have been around for a long time and have trained their share of students.
I liked L3’s location (personal preference) and facilities but the cost was substantially higher for me when factoring in the length of program and higher interest rates in loans. Plus, the lenders they offered didn’t cover 100 percent of costs in the program and living expenses. Their Part 141 operation is very structured and would work well for someone that requires classroom structure and doesn’t learn/study well on their own. ATP seems to require a lot more individual initiative. My $0.02…
Thank you, adam! Let me give you more info because I now realize I didn’t provide enough. I am going drom zero-commercial and am 24 years old (changing careers). So those numbers are accurate. ATP would be a 91k loan, that includes the base price of 74k plus exams, 800 per month living expenses and necessary “gear,” totaling to 91k. PEA is 70k all said and done (without living expenses).
PEA told me that they don’t know have connections or partnerships with airline and because “creating partnerships provides student with low tier regionals, where high tear regionals come to PEA because we have the number 1 pass rate in the state and are the top school.” I don’t know how true this is, so don’t shoot the messenger! Haha.
PEA also told me that ATP is a pilot mill and that they graduate pilots who aren’t as skilled as others because they care more about making money.
Any other thoughts would be helpful as I don’t know if this is all true.
How are you going to put that commercial to work in order to build the required 1500 hours to join a regional (assuming that is your goal)?
Hey Trey,
So with ATPs program, you work as a CFI until the 1500 hours are reached
William,
Yes successful ATP grads have a guaranteed instructor position waiting at the location of their choice.
Ok so let’s talk about your friends at PEA. Low tier Regionals? If Skywest, Compass, and Envoy are “low tier” Regionals PLEASE tell me who the high tier are? Now if it were true about ATPs low quality product (like me, a Capt and instructor at a Major) how would ATP have over 300 grads hired at the TOP Regionals in the country in the last 12 months alone? EVERY airline Capt I know who’s child wants to become a pilot sends them to ATP. I could go on but it’s my word against theirs so who are you going to believe?
Here’s an idea, I suggest you talk to pilots next time you’re at the airport or call the Regional recruiters themselves. Ask who’s heard of ATP and what they think. Then ask about PEA but don’t be surprised if they respond with “who?”
One more thing. Read some of the threads on this forum written by current students. Ask them questions. I think the fact ATP created this forum and invites students and viewpoints from all schools says volumes.
Adam
ATP does not “graduate” anybody. All students pass checkrides administered by FAA examiners, the exact same check ride that any student from any school takes.
Those are great suggestions. With what regionals are paying now, have you seen friends or colleagues struggling to pay off loans or is the pay at a point where it isn’t that worrisome when it comes to paying back loans?
Financing is my biggest hurdle, I worry about ATP’s price tag
William,
I am in my second year at a regional and I make enough money to live on my own and make payments on my flight school loan, auto loan, auto insurance, gym membership, personal trainer, cell phone…and the occasional $5 coffee at Starbucks when I’m in the mood for a Cold Foam Cascara Nitro Brew.
In all seriousness, I will say that I also refinanced my flight school loan down to a 5% interest rate and took advantage of ATP’s Tuition Reimbursement Program.
Tory
“Cold Foam Cascara Nitro brew”? And we were getting along so well…
Adam
I read your response in the voice of Captain Dave from LA to Vegas 
This is a really odd comment from PEA, in my opinion. Not the pilot mill stuff (as if that’s an insult?), but the graduating pilots who aren’t as skilled. Do those pilots have all their ratings or not? If they’re “graduating,” then they do - which presumably makes them just as skilled, according to the only summative assessments provided - checkrides, which flight schools do not administer.
Thank you, Sergey! I do like ATP more, but PEA made me nervous with all of their comments about ATP, and I get nervous about having a huge amount of debt to pay back. The interest rates aren’t great and I’m not sure if Sallie Mae will refinance, but I guess you gotta take out the money if that’s what you want to do.
I have heard from multiple people that you can refinance SLMA with a lower interest rate once you’re gainfully employed. I seriously looked at PEA but if they in fact did make the comment about ATP being a “pilot mill” it’s pretty screwed up sales tactics. If that comment is based on the fact that ATP gets students through the program quickly—PEA advertises a program that gets you your CMEL in less than 200 hours so that can’t be it. If it is the number of students that ATP cranks out—PEA advertises as one of their selling points how many thousands of students they have trained and justifies it as the reason for the FAA exemption to CMEL hour minimums. Once again, they appear to be more of a “mill” if anything. Do yourself a favor and do what I did—go and tour the facilities, ask every airline pilot you meet where they went to school and what their opinions are of either school. I have heard plenty of people say they like ATP, or don’t know enough about ATP to give an opinion (along the lines “Haven’t heard anything bad, so they must be ok”). I have had only one good friend of mine say something negative about ATP based on his experience being located on the same airport as one of the locations. I also befriended a new ATP student whose opinion I trust to give me the good and the bad: he started in February and is now in the middle of his crew phase. With no prior flying experience he had his PPL and instrument rating in about 4 months including starting delays. That speaks volumes to me…
When I asked about PEA, most pilots said “Who? Haven’t heard of them…” and the one that did know both schools well said that his regional had a hard time recruiting from ATP as most ATP grads were snapped up by Envoy and the likes of them.
Again, don’t take my word for it, go visit schools and make up your own mind. Don’t delay too much. The DAB location fills up quick and I’d be surprised if October class dates are still available.
William,
I have to ask, “PEA’s comments about ATP made you nervous” but the concerns myself and others have brought up about PEA doesn’t? While you seem very confident in their pricing I ask again where is it in print? I was on their website and could not find anything that would get you from Zero time to CPL CFII/MEII for the numbers you quote? ATP’s price is very clearly stated, using realistic and accurate times. Are you simply making your comparison HOPING they’ll be cheaper? All their comments about “lower tier” Regionals are flat out false. Does that not “make you nervous”? Tory IS a Regional pilot and he’s told you he’s doing fine as are the HUNDREDS of other ATP grads. These are pilots who have completed their training with a GUARANTEED instructor position and ALL the Regionals fighting over them. No Regional partnerships also means no Tuition Reimbursement. You’re obviously concerned about the expense of ATP (which I completely understand, it is ALOT of money) but you’re completely ignoring the fact at only 500hrs you can interview and if successful not only have a job waiting for you at a Regional BUT start receiving $500 mos in Tuition Reimbursement to help with those payments. Maybe you should ask PEA about that? Also know that the mentors on this forum are loyal to ATP solely because we believe in the program. The people you spoke with at PEA are EMPLOYEES and salesman for PEA. We are not. Frankly we receive NOTHING whether you sign up or not.
Your choice as always but I would seriously consider ALL the info presented as well as the source.
Adam
I always find humor in the “ATP is a pilot mill” approach that other schools take. Yes, ATP is a mill, they specialize in turning out several hundred new pilots per year, with all of their FAA licenses.
Being a pilot is not like being an artist where you can excel in one area, but lack in others. A pilot has to be fully competent in every area at all times. Furthermore, the FAA applies the exact same standards to every single pilot, there are no exceptions. So, the FAA is a pilot mill and ATP does a very good job producing exactly what the FAA wants, and that is a good thing.
Tory—
I remember you mentioned that you refinanced privately. Is that how you got down to 5 percent or was it with a financial institution? I want to plan that out so I can refinance as soon as I’m eligible to.
Thank you!
Sergey
Sergey,
That is correct. I was fortunate to have a relative willing to help.
Tory