Hi, right now I’m in a difficult situation with my local flight school because I had a bad landing while practicing landings around the traffic pattern. My instructor and I noticed that tread was showing on the left tire and after securing the airplane and signing the bill, the owner of the flight school was waiting for me in front of my car and started questioning me about what had happened. At the end, he gave me some clues and I think my flight school will charge me for a new tire and that would really affect my training account>$$$. After finishing high school I worked hard and saved money to Finance my PPL… I’m glad I’m doing really good with my training right now, I only need to master landings to go for my first solo. I already secured a co-signer and will go to ATP when I get my PPL by December, but I think I will have to stop flying and start working again to pay for that tire. I only have enough money for my flight training but not enough for extra costs. My local flight school is already about 15% more expensive than ATP but that was the only option I had because no Bank would give a loan to a high school graduate(obviously) unless they have a good co-signer which I didn’t back then… I’ve been in this forum since 2014, I was 16 back then, now I’m 20 and achieved my dream to start flying training, I would like to read any opinion on what should I do in this case, I’m really frustrated because of my bad landings and the tire that I will have to (probably) pay which will lead me to interrupt my training for some time.
Any feedback and/or opinion on what should I do? should I stop flying- work -and save more money for extra costs, or find a solution with my local flight school so I don’t stop training at such an important moment in my life.
If you damaged the airplane and their policy is for you to pay for the damage then that’s what you signed up for. Not sure your question regarding the damage?
As for your training I’m a bit confused? You haven’t soloed yet and we’re half way through Sept. Tire cost or not I don’t see how you’d earn your PPL AND build the required 80hrs flight time by December? You say the school is more expensive but you couldn’t get financing but you have it now? If that’s the case why wouldn’t you just start from scratch with ATP? Not really making sense?
Btw, I’ve been flying for 30yrs and I have yet to “master” landings. Your goal is safe, consistent and proficient landings. Mastery is a lifelong endeavor.
Is not a damage, I just a skid in the left tire, I should have been more specific on that.
About the flight training; what do you mean about the “required 80hrs flight time”? I thought it was 40hrs minimum to get PPL. I’m also enrolled for a bachelor degree in aviation which qualifies me for the Restricted ATP (R-ATP) Program instead of 40 hours minimum I can get my PPL with 35hrs. right now I have about 20 hours so I think I would make it by December.
About why I “didn’t start from scratch with ATP” is because ATP requires full funds to start traying for all required licenses( from zero time- to CFI) which will make my life much easier, but after finishing high school I didn’t have a credit history or a co-signer to apply for a loan to go to ATP, so I decided to work, save money and pay for my PPL in my local flight school while at the same time building my credit history so I can take out a loan. I applied for a loan with ATP last year and I was denied but I had the funds to pay JUST for my PPL in my local flight school so the best option I had was to keep building my credit history apply with a co-signer and start from Private pilot to CFI at ATP.
I really appreciate that last message, I was almost crying that day I couldn’t get a single landing right, I bounce, balloon and skid the left tire. I know I can land because I have landed before, but some days are just a complete chaos.
Yes the FAA requires a minimum of 40hrs to get your PPL BUT ATP requires students coming in with their PPLs to have at least 80hrs of flight time. Also you should know that you don’t need an aviation degree to get an R-ATP. The degree could allow you to get your R-ATP with reduced hours BUT that’s only if the flight training was done in conjunction with the degree program through the college.
oOH, that’s interesting, I didn’t know that… so if I have just 40 hours with my PPL and have the loan approve, how I suppose to start training if I don’t have 80 hours?. will I have to fly +40 extra hours with ATP and then move on with Instrument license? if so, what will I be practicing during those extra 40 hours?
First while the FAA minimum is 40hrs, statistically the average student takes closer to 60. But yes however many hours you’re short of 80hrs total time, ATP will require you to build. What you do/practice during those hours is entirely up to you however ATP does offer the option to finish that time at ATP using their airplanes and instructors but the time MUST be met before starting the program.
I like the structure of ATP training, 80 hours should be enough to get a PPL, this process is much different than my local flight school which will only require me 35 hours to get a PPL, but I will put that to the test and see if that’s possible. I won’t’ bother flying extra 40hours, that’s just more experience for me.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. ATP DOES NOT REQUIRE 80HRS FOR YOU TO GET YOUR PPL. In order for you to start the Airline Career Pilot program at ATP WITH CREDIT for your PPL YOU MUST HAVE 80HRS OF FLIGHT TIME. If you get your PPL at your local flight school and it only takes you 35hrs IF you THEN want to start the Career Pilot program AND not have to repeat your PPL training, ATP will require you to obtain an additional 45hrs (35+45=80). You can get that time on your own OR you can purchase additional flight time with ATP BUT the 80hrs MUST be accomplished before beginning the Airline Career Pilot program with ATP. This is so you have sufficient time to obtain your Commercial Pilot license when the time comes.
ok, I’m understanding now… that information was crucial because I was going to take out a loan only for my Instrument license to CFI. Since I won’t be able to get that extra time on my own I will have to purchase additional time with ATP…but just to make sure, when you said “What you do/practice during those hours is entirely up to you”, you meant I can just fly to my liking with ATP Aircrafts? or ATP will have a curriculum ready so I can use their Aircraft while I complete the extra 40 hours?
No. If you decide to build the additional hours on your own you can fly around in circles, go travel, or do additional training. Whatever YOU like. ATP does not rent airplanes NOR do they allow pilots to go fly on their own unsupervised. Basically IF you decided to build the time with ATP the instructor would first make sure you’re up to speed and then start getting you acquainted with ATPs procedures which can and probably are different from your current training. After that (if there’s still time) you’ll probably start working on some instrument skills.
If that’s the route you plan on taking AND you’re planning on starting with ATP in December you need to start the process very soon and discuss with them your plan. You also don’t mention what you’re going to do regarding the degree you’re working on? Will you be stopping school and hoping to return after you’re done training and instructing? You cannot train with ATP and be in college at the same time.
There are several issues with your plan that need to be addressed. As for the tire, I feel that for a flight school, that is the cost of doing business. Remember that their CFI was in the airplane and as the PIC, is the one who is ultimately responsible for the airplane, not you. Secondly, if the school is going to charge you, then they need to tell you that, or you need to ask. Either way, you shouldn’t be left wondering. Thirdly, a tire is not that expensive, the cost of a tire should not be enough to throw off your training. While attending a school like this, you will have cost overruns. Heck, in real life there are cost overruns. If you can’t absorb a few hundred dollars, then your budget is simply too tight and you are going to have problems with finances somewhere in your training.
I understand why you initially started with this school, but either they were not forth-coming or you misunderstood some of what you were being told. To begin with, you aren’t going to get your private in 35 or 40 hours. I know very few people who have done this. The average is more around 65-70, which will be significantly more expensive than what you are planning on. On top of this, the school already sounds like it is an expensive one.
Also, with the route you are going, you will not be eligible for the R-ATP. You would need to attend an approved university, major in aviation and get all of your licenses there to qualify for such. This is an incredibly expensive route to go.
You are not very deep into your training, so I see no reason why you are committed to this school. I personally would not deal with a school where the owner was confronting people in the parking lot.
ok, I understand ATP does not rent their aircraft and I will probably be working on some instrument skills to get to the 80hrs, thank you for clarifying that for me.
regarding my degree; If I go to ATP, I will continue because that’s already financed with FAFSA(financial aid) BUT I will be taking only two classes (part-time). I know I will fly Mon-Fri with ATP, so I will take my classes on the weekends, Online not at the physical University…and what do you mean by “You cannot train with ATP and be in college at the same time.”?.. If everything goes as plan, I will not be working so I think I will have time for both, and the classes I take will be general courses which will not require as much time as the major courses. I think is possible, but please let me know your Opinion.
the Owner of the flight school told me that the renter is responsible not the flight school, but like you said the CFI was the PIC not me so I will have to read the contract I signed with them to make sure. I have extra money for overruns if the tire is not that expensive like you said(hopefully).
now, you’re telling me that 65-70 hours is the average time to get a PPL, so I don’t understand why my school is telling me I can get it at 35-40 hours, it might sound impossible but is possible. maybe my school just have a different curriculum.
Also, I’m not really interested in the R-ATP, but I want a bachelor degree because I know I will needed for the major airlines. I talk with my university and they told me I can get my Pilot licenses somewhere else and then transfer those credits so I can graduate
I’m not really committed to this school, and I don’t want to deal with owners confronting me. All I want is get My PPL and go to ATP in December. (from Private Pilot-to CFI)
You’re really not grasping the concept of ATP. ATPs program is a HIGHLY accelerated program that compresses years worth of training into months. It is a full-time commitment and requires 100% of you time. Now this is America and no one can tell you what you can and cannot do but I can promise you that if you attempt to continue university classes and ATP at the same time, one will suffer to the point of failure. If it’s ATP you can’t say “I thought it would be OK…”. If you don’t keep up you will be cut, failed checkrides can effect your entire career. It’s a recipe for disaster. People have tried and have lost ALOT of money.
Further from all your posts it seems you’re trying to rush or beat the system. That will not work. ATP requires either a PPL AND 80hrs or a Degree. You have neither and it doesn’t seem like you’re close to either. If you want to continue school (which I recommend) do that, earn your degree and then start with ATP. If you want to finish your PPL and then delay school till after that’s fine too. What you can’t do is everything at once.
As you said, I’m not really grasping the concept of ATP, but when you said “accelerated program that compresses years worth of training into months” I realize that that will really require %100 of my time for sure… If I continue with my current program that would take me 4 years, but with ATP is about 6-9 months!, so I understand why you said years worth of training into months… If that’s the case, I will delay school and go to ATP. I know you recommend me continuing school, but I’ve been flying training for some time and Is preferable to continue flying and get the bachelor degree later since I won’t go to the majors right away after having all requirements.
Thank you for this information, it will help me make future decisions
Before you make any decisions at all, I think you need to spend significantly more time researching the industry and the various paths to get there. I recommend spending some serious time on Google, the forum and our FAQ section as there is a lot of great information there.
I’m still hung up on the guy who runs the flight school. From the way you described it, it sounds like the tire just needs a retread. That’s under $100, IIRC. It’s kind of skeezy for the school to kick a fairly common issue like that onto the student in the first place, but the way he approached it is really waving a red flag.
I didn’t like the way he approached me either. I was already frustrated because of my bad landings and then I have someone behind me, warning me to pay for a brand new tire(yes, new). it’s totally a red flag. As Chris said, I also feel the flight school should be responsible, I’m just a student learning to fly and I pay not just for the aircraft but the instructor the PIC, he is the real pilot, so If the instructor knows I’m doing something wrong he should have had corrected me and the tire would be just fine, and this happened many times during my training with landings WITH THIS INSTRUCTOR.
But surprisingly, and for some reason, my flight Instructor quit the same day of the accident, which left me wondering why… Today I had a flight and I was expecting to be approached again, but no one told me anything until I asked about the tire, and what they told me left me in shock. It appears that my beloved Instructor wasn’t really that good at landing either. He was supposed to take a flight with the chief instructor to see his landing performance but he quit exactly the same day of the accident and the same day he had to show his landing to the chief instructor. It appears to me that he knew he was going to be held responsible for the tire, and quit before getting charged. In the end, I was told that I didn’t have to pay anything because my ex-instructor( a recent graduate) had the fault on what had happened.
Even though I don’t have the pressure of paying for the tire anymore, I still have resentment because I almost left crying and didn’t sleep that night thinking I was a horrible student pilot blaming my self for not been competent enough, I thought I was the problem, but I wasn’t…hopefully I practice landing again today with another instructor, and this time I was able to land like I never did before. I’m really happy I was not the problem and learned how much damage a bad instructor can cause.
