Hi there, my daughter is applying to ATP and funding flight school with a personal loan. Our family does not have a large financial reserve and she is hoping to get into Envoy, PSA or Piedmont’s cadet program since they have the best tuition reimbursement and flow through to American Airlines. We’ve seen that major airlines prefer Bachelor’s degrees. Does anyone know what the chances are she will get into one of these programs without a college degree, provided she gets good recommendations and is a great CFI?
Sara,
It is definitely possible but know American is very clear a 4yr degree is preferred and therefore will give preference to those with one.
Further, does your daughter have any flight experience? Many people believe they want to fly but some find out its not really what they thought it would be like or simply don’t enjoy it. This is why we always recommend college first (it’s also a prerequisite unless she has comparable work experience) in case aviation doesn’t work out either by choice or circumstance.
Adam
Hi Adam, thank you so much for your reply. Hailey has been obsessed with travel since she could walk and has traveled to Bali, Mexico, Bahamas, East Coast, locally, but only as a passenger, not a pilot. As I understand from several conversations with ATP admissions counselors, once she passes her COMPASS test (she’s sitting next to me preparing to take it now, and she’s already secured a loan) and takes her admissions flight (possibly this weekend) she can secure a class start date in Feb or March. My question here then is, what do you mean by college being a pre-requisite? (can you clarify, pre-req for what)?
Thank you so much,
Sara
Sara,
The Compass test can be used in lieu of having a degree so she should be fine. That doesn’t negate the fact a 4yr degree is (and will remain) preferred.
What’s much more important is the Admissions Flight. To be perfectly frank, the fact your daughter has been obsessed with travel while sitting in the back of an airplane has literally nothing to do with her comfort and ability to fly (my son has been obsessed with football since he was 2 but you won’t see playing for the NFL in this lifetime). Not saying she won’t be awesome, just saying it’s VERY different.
Adam
Hi Adam,
Thank you so much for your time and thoughtful responses. I don’t mean to press the issue, and I know you can’t give a definitive answer to the question, but in your experience, and given the current climate and demand for pilots, can you give any insight (or best guess) of what her odds would be of getting acceptance to Envoy’s cadet program given she doesn’t have a bachelor’s degree? She does have some college (started taking classes while in HS) but hasn’t completed her AA. I really appreciate your time. As you can imagine, she is trying to make the most informed decision possible without feeling like she’s taking too much of a gamble.
Thank you truly,
Sara
Sara,
Disclosure: I do not work for American Airlines and am not terribly familiar with their program. My understanding is that you can get accepted into the Envoy, PSA, Piedmont flow programs without a degree and will eventually flow to American Airlines.
That being said, that is literally putting all of your eggs in the AA basket. It sounds great right now, but what happens when American stops hiring, or has financial troubles? She might want to consider other airlines. I fly with a fair number of new hire pilots at United and every single one of them has a college degree.
The good news is that there are several colleges that will give credit for flight training (towards an aviation degree). Check out this link: College Credit for Airline Career Pilot Students / ATP Flight School
There will be plenty of time while your daughter is flying for the regionals for her to work on a degree online. Many before her have done this with much success.
Chris
Sara,
With all due respect you are trying to push the issue because you want me to say you’re daughter will be fine without a degree to make you feel all warm and fuzzy which I’m not going to say.
Right now, today, the world is experiencing the greatest pilot shortage in history. That means if you’re successful in training, have all the requirements, a clean record and a pulse, you’ll get hired. That’s today. Tomorrow is anybody’s guess. There’s a reason why AA states (and I’ve reiterated) a 4 yr Degree is preferred. It’s not to waste ink, its very simply saying while right now we need every single body we can get, tomorrow we might not and when that happens we’re going to tighten up and don’t say we didn’t warn you.
The good news is the Regionals don’t require a degree so your daughter will (if successful) be able to get a job as an airline pilot BUT if her goal is to fly for AA (or another Major) and doesn’t want to “gamble” she will need a 4yr degree. Without one best you can do is cross your fingers and hope the wind is blowing in the right direction.
Adam
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Adam, and Chris,
Thank you both so very much for your replies. It means so much. We’ve done mounds of research up until this point re: pros and cons (incl. time, cost, and benefits) of flight school v. college first… pilot demand, career forecast, cadet recruiting, bonuses, airline partnerships, pros and cons and quality of life as a pilot, etc. and I feel good knowing that we’d done the bulk of the homework before officially signing onto this site and reaching out. As you both know, there are many, many factors to consider in terms of career risks and financial planning, and these are real concerns for students and their families, especially when there is not a large financial reserve. Life and career planning is a big deal. Each option and each choice bears much consideration and many potential consequences. Hence, making the best choice possible with the information you have at the time is everything, and having access to insight from professionals and mentors like yourselves is priceless. I wish I’d had that kind of access and assistance when I was embarking on my nursing school journey. I really can’t thank both of you enough. As we know, the current climate is warm and welcoming, but we also know that that can change at any time. Adam, you’re somewhat right in assuming I was hoping for some reassurance that would provide that “warm and fuzzy” feeling that would assure us we’d made the right choice, but really, I just wanted to know that the research we’d done and the projections we’d made were on target. And thank you for your honesty. We now know where Hailey stands and you both helped us in knowing that we are making the right decision for her future. Again, I can’t thank you enough.
Warmly,
Sara
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Hello,
I work for an aa regional and am very familiar with flow and cadet program as I was part of it.
A degree is 100% not needed and will give little to no bonus at present time. Keep in mind in 2 years when she’s ready that very well may change.
If you work for an American Regional you get a seniority number there and each regional takes a certain number of pilots each month and they auto flow to American if they bid to go; a degree is not in any way part of this equation. If you work for an American Regional, you’re eligible end of story. That interview for the cadet program or First Officer position is the last interview you’ll ever complete all the way to mainline.
If you have to apply to American outside the flow from another carrier or change your mind and want to go to United or Delta for example then the application with a degree will likely get preferential attention.
I hope this helps,
Jeremy
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Thank you so much Jeremy, your input is also incredibly helpful! Her plan right now is to start ATP and (fingers crossed) get into one of these Cadet programs, and do her BS online while at Regional. That way she can build seniority and also still get her degree. She knows this will be tough as working a career and going to school is hard, but she’s young and she knows what it will take. Again, can’t thank you all enough.
Sara
No problem,
As she gets into it, it’s always best to find people who have gone through what you want to go through fairly recently.
A super smart senior pilot once told me “ I can’t give you the best advice on that because it’s not my company and I went through it 8 years ago “
Once she’s closer ; find pilots who recently went through that companies training etc.
If I’m ever able to help, I’m happy to answer questions.
Best,
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Sara,
Sorry I’m a little late to the conversation but I like the plan so far. If shes in a hurry to start, flight training, then building time applying for cadet programs and going to a regional with a flow (as a back up).
However, if your daughter is just graduating high school, getting some college experience would be ideal, an associates from a community college or somewhere she can get cheap in state tuition. Not only would it check a box for a prerequisite for the program but it would also help prepare her for the rigors of the accelerated airline career pilot program. Then once she’s at a regional she would only need the remaining credits towards a bachelors degree.
The degree argument is a personal decision but I’d hate for your daughter to take out a huge loan for flight training, go through all the work of getting qualified, getting to a regional and then be severely limited on where she can go. There is nothing wrong with having the flow as a solid back up plan, but I wouldn’t rely on it. So much has and will continue to change in the coming years.
Hannah
Sitting in the back of the plane is way different than sitting in the front of the plane. It’s why it’s recommended to join a flying program to get more stick and rudder time to feel out if flying is your thing and it helps prepare you before going into this program. ATP is a pretty expense way to figure out that piloting is not your thing or that you prefer a slower paced schooling.
Thank you, Hannah, and David for chiming in!
She just passed her COMPASS test (yay!) and we’re still weighing options but leaning towards her starting ATP in March and doing her BS online while working at a Regional since she’ll be able to apply credits from flight school. She still has to go on her acceptance flight (she actually has two scheduled, one with ATP and one with a family friend who is a pilot), which we know is going to be the ultimate deciding factor in whether or not she even wants to pursue flying. But as we go along, we’re still trying to gather as much info we can as she makes these decisions.
So, another question for you guys: in interviews for Cadet programs, will the fact she’s going to get her BS weigh into her chances of getting accepted? Just wondering how this will affect/impact her chances to flow through to the majors in terms of just getting accepted and timeline to get to majors. Hope this makes sense.
Thank you all again so much!
Sara
Sara,
“Going to get her BS” will not help her at all. No disrespect, but plenty of people say things like that when they are trying to secure positions. Having a degree would certainly help.
All of that being said, most of the cadet programs do not require degrees anyways, although they always help.
Chris
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Sara,
I’d just focus on how the discovery flights go! If she doesn’t enjoy it enough to pursue the career, all of this is wasted energy.
As for the degree, she doesn’t need one for any of the cadet programs or the regionals. The time she will need to have a diploma with a bachelors degree would be when she’s applying for the majors. Plenty of time between now and then, and a ton of hurdles to clear first!
Hannah
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Can you give a little insight to how the Compass test was as far questions and difficulty?
Sara,
Myself and alongside another friend are both currently building our applications to Envoy’s Cadet Program, whilst current students at ATP. Your daughter might hear a lot of (when she begins), “focus on the now and don’t worry about who, what, when and where you’ll fly.” While I generally will get behind the advice of others, everyone is different and sets certain goals for themselves. Unfortunately, this is something I find extremely unhelpful. She will fly and will be an incredible aviator IF it is her passion. Too many years in the military showed me what happens when you don’t set goals NOW, or allow others to look down at where you want to go and especially verbalize their doubt on your success. It is her career, her life.
I say all this to say, in a cadet program like AA, you are tied to the airline, you will flow, and ultimately you are setting yourself up for a long and great career with an incredibly reliable airline. All of my reassurance thoughts and opinions have come straight from recruiting conversations I have had with the Envoy staff and a couple of 30 year Captains currently with AA that have been friends of mine since a child. I have spent my entire life since I was 5 waiting for what is happening now all because I did the research you all are doing.
If she puts in the work, she will get there! Best wishes and I hope this helps a little!