Schedules and weekends

Hi, I know there’s a lot of threads regarding career changers who are in their late 40’s and appreciate all the info especially as becoming a pilot has been a lifelong dream…but have a few more questions:

  1. although getting to the Majors may be a challenge, do you see working at a ULCC (Frontier, Allegient. or even the newly launched Avelo Airlines out of Burbank) in the same category? I noticed that Avelo airlines lists FO minimums at 1500 hours so was just curious…
  2. at a regional airline, I understand that weekend line schedules are hard to come by with less seniority but what about bidding for reserve schedules with weekends off? Are these type of reserve schedules available at the regionals for those with less seniority?
    Thanks again for all your answers - you guys help fill in the gaps for those of us who are considering switching careers and helping set expectations . Thanks!

Ravi,

Welcome to the forum! Let’s get to your questions:

  1. No, I would not put the ULCCs in the same category as the majors. The jobs are easier to get there, but the pay, benefits and work rules are also less. Many pilots use the ULCCs as stepping stones to the legacy carriers.

  2. Absolutely. Many pilots will choose to bid reserve in order to get weekends and holidays off. I can hold a line, but ?I routinely bid down to reserve because the schedules better for my seniority. The same would hold true at the regionals.

Keep asking your questions as you think of them.

Chris

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Ravi,

  1. There’s a reason some airlines are called Majors and others are not. They are not in the same category nor do they offer the same pay, benefits or quality of life.

  2. By bidding a Reserve schedule you will generally get a better schedule sooner BUT keep in mind this is not an original thought so the pilots senior to you will get and hold them first and longer. You need to accept the fact weekends off will not be a reality for a pilot for a while.

Adam

I’m a little late to the party on this one but I’m going to offer a nuanced perspective. I’m a ULCC pilot who was originally headed for the legacies until I landed at Frontier. Now, I have no desire to move on. This is a story repeated by many a Frontier pilot and I suspect the same is true at Spirit. All things being equal, I would probably end up on a par or maybe even behind at retirement if I left now for a legacy from a financial standpoint. From a quality of life standpoint, I would definitely be behind, which is the deciding factor for me.

Categories can be interesting beasts because there is really no singular definition of “legacy” or “major” or “national” or even “regional,” from a pilot perspective anyway.

The only thing which is a constant in the airline industry is that everything is always changing and sometimes quite dramatically in a short period of time as we’ve all seen just this last year. Pilots who went to airlines that were the place to be in the day have found themselves out of jobs when their airlines went under. Others who went to the “new startup” airline found themselves making out much better than they would have been at a legacy airline. No one has a crystal ball.

That all being said, there can be quite a bit of disparity between pilot jobs at the ULCCs, so it’s really tough to lump all ULCCs in the same category from a pilot job perspective, even if they have similar business models. On the whole ULCCs have lower pay rates than the legacies (roughly 15% for Frontier for the same aircraft type at a legacy). Work rules that translate into quality of life I’ve learned depends a lot on what base/seat/equipment and level of seniority. At least for Spirit/Frontier, our work rules are pretty decent and in many ways can produce an equivalent quality of life to those of a legacy carrier. The same may not be true of Avelo (too new to say), or some of the other ULCCs.

One of the big differences (for the time being) is the non-existence of widebody aircraft at the ULCCs. Large, international networks with a large number of destinations being another one. For some the draw of widebody aircraft and exotic destinations may be strong, for others not as much. From what I’ve heard/read in my conversation with other pilots over the years, it would seem that for most pilots the lure of big metal fades over time.

Minimum requirements to get a job at a legacy are generally higher because there is greater competition for those jobs due to their reputation of being the “top job” to go for. That being said, just because the minimums are higher doesn’t necessarily make it easier to get a job at the ULCC level. ULCCs can be picky too. While it may seem easier for some to get an interview at Frontier due to the lack of a degree requirement, we’ve traditionally hired a significantly lower percentage of those we interview compared to the legacies.

What it all boils down to at the end of the day is what are you looking for? Everyone would agree seniority is pretty much king in this industry. The faster you gain seniority, the faster your quality of life and pay go up. If you’re in your late 40s then the time you have to reach the upper ranges of seniority is significantly more limited than a guy in his 30s. A stable, growing ULCC may very well offer that progression faster than a legacy. Then again, we may not have a crew base in your hometown or anywhere near close, so that may be a consideration if it’s important to you. It’s all dependent on your priorities.

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Ray,
I’m not sure if you’re still active on these forums but I’ve heard a fair amount of scuttlebutt regarding Frontier adapting “the Allegiant model” as far as trips turning into more of an out and back. I’m curious if that is true and what else is happening at Frontier.
I appreciate any insight!
Thanks
-Steve

Hi Steve,

Yeah, I’m still here :slight_smile: I hesitate to endorse the “Allegiant model” moniker because the true Allegiant model is quite different to our business model. The truth of the matter is that we’ve had a large percentage of 1-2 day trips ever since COVID hit. 3-4 day trips have crept back in over time but there is a renewed push towards 1 day trips and multiplication of bases to support that model. The concept communicated by senior management is we are moving more towards a Ryanair setup.

In other news, with the pullback in hiring at the legacies, we’ve experienced lower attrition among the pilot ranks over the last couple of months. That combined with apparent staffing efficiencies as we adjust the network to the “new” model means hiring has slowed slightly here too. There was some uncertainty regarding how the P&W issues would affect us but it the current thought is that it won’t affect us until later this year and then only minimally so. That whole thing has been a moving goalpost though so we may not have heard the final word on it.

We have a very full cadet pipeline right now with some 850 cadets in it. The focus right now is on getting our current cadets who have reached minimums into class ASAP.

That’s about it :slight_smile:

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